Trombones besides Bach in the section

[jsswadley]

Hey Guys! This is not a survey, but a totally subjective question. Do the trombonists in your orchestra use instruments besides Bachs and if so what is your take on that? I would especially like to hear what you orchestral tubists think about 1.) Edwards and 2.) Conn trombones. Is anyone in a section with a Courtois? I am, and frankly I think it stinks. Could be, and probably is the player, but all opinions are welcome. John

[Toobist]

Um... I know they all have slides... Some have rotors too!

[tuba_hacker]

I am perplexed at the visceral reaction to Courtois trombones.

Some of the best and most exciting trombone playing I've heard is by a group called the New Trombone Collective. In their second CD (does anyone use the word "album" anymore?), the entire ensemble of 11 trombonists is playing a Courtois trombone. Other than noting a likely Courtois sponsorship, what they play is irrelevant. What really matters is the music - the instrument is merely a tool in the hands of a good musician. As far as I am concerned they could be playing pawn-shop Bundys and still put out a outstanding album...er, CD.

Maybe a Courtois is just not the best tool for your orchestral colleague.

[Cameron Gates]

Does Courtois still exist AS an instrument MAKER?. I was under the impression that it now exists only as a name that is slapped on instruments made by others. There was a Courtois CC tuba that was simply a rebadged B&S. There is no way that it was anything different. Very fine horn

The latest Courtois trombones I have seen seem to be rebadged Bachs. If they were not made in Elkhart, then they were darn fine imitations.

[bearphonium]

Our bass 'bone plays a double (F and G, I think) Olds. Large bore, with a Bach mouthpiece. Our first chair plays a Yamaha with an F attachment, and second is on a Bach, no F attachment.

[DaTubaKid]

the entire ensemble of 11 trombonists is playing a Courtois trombone

Wow

All eleven guys/girls playing the same trombone at the same time? Impressive! [/quote]

[Ferguson]

Does Courtois still exist AS an instrument MAKER?. I was under the impression that it now exists only as a name that is slapped on instruments made by others. There was a Courtois CC tuba that was simply a rebadged B&S. There is no way that it was anything different. Very fine horn

The latest Courtois trombones I have seen seem to be rebadged Bachs. If they were not made in Elkhart, then they were darn fine imitations.

Yes, Courtois still exists, and I believe they make everything in France. They are either owned by Buffet-Crampon, or are at least distributed by them in the US. Courtois was owned by JA for a while, but JA sold them off. (JA=B&S, Hoyer, Meinl-Weston, Scherzer)

Those B42 looking Courtois are not made by Bach, but you can sure see where the inspiration for the design came from.

SF

[Cameron Gates]

Yes, Courtois still exists, and I believe they make everything in France. They are either owned by Buffet-Crampon, or are at least distributed by them in the US. Courtois was owned by JA for a while, but JA sold them off. (JA=B&S, Hoyer, Meinl-Weston, Scherzer)

That explains the B&S tuba being rebadged.

I am really amazed that they were able to copy, at least by eye, the Bach 42 so closely. The last one I saw was at the Eastern Trombone Workshop where we side/side'd it with a 42 and they were identical. Everything on it was the same - color, bell size, valve bore, F wrap, brace flanges, even the linkages.

[Alex F]

I own a Courtois 420BOII which looks, and plays, like a Bach 42BO but is more open in the trigger notes thanks to the larger bore F valve section. It was made by B&S. The horn is very well made and has one of the smoothest slides I've ever playes. {It is for sale, by the way, as I've decided that smaller equipment works better for me}

Courtois was acquired by Buffet-Crampon in January 2006. At the time of the sale, it was announced that B&S would continue to make at least some of the trombones for Courtois. Leblanc was the Courtois distributor in the US - I don't know who handles the brand now.

I've read many a discussion on the Trombone Forum (www.tromboneforum.org) debating the pros and cons of a "section sound" using matched instruments. For example, my understanding is that the CSO 'bone section is a "Bach" section while the LA Phil is a "Conn" section. While the case may well be that the Courtois in the initial poster's group is a dud, it may also be the case that the guy behind the mouthpiece isn't listening to the rest of you.

[ken k]

Well Edwards is great I think.

I've asked quite a few professional trombonists this question "point blank":

If an Edwards trombone were outfitted with a more traditional F attachment and the bell were stamped with the name of its actual maker: GETZEN, WOULD YOU have considered buying it?

To a player, they have all answered,

...I don't know...

I did and I do. I sold my Edwards and went back to rotors and got a 1052. Plays great (and less filling!) The rotor section is oversized so the valve sectin is very free blowing. The only difference is that the bell section is not modular. The slide is the same and has 3 interchangeable leadpipes.

ken k

[bttmbow]

This topic can become a "can o' worms" REAL quick, but nonetheless, I feel like I can/should say a few things about it, anyway.

In the MET trombone section, we have two Principal(1st) players, one regular 2nd player and two Bass Trombonists, one of them sometimes filling in on the 2nd part, if the repertoire is deemed OK to be played on Bass.

This being said, we have not had ONE brand being played by the whole section. Our audition process is all behind the screen, so the people that win the audition play with the kind of sound/approach/musicality that fits our needs in the orchestra. So, what I'm getting at is that no matter WHAT you are playing ON, you will STILL sound like YOU. YES, there are differences from brand to brand, but the player is the most important piece of the equation.

The original poster obviously hates this Courtois Trombone, at least the way the player sounds on it, so if the TROMBONE section feels as strongly as the tubist, an "intervention" might be helpful.

On this idea, I have very strong opinions myself about what MY favorite tenor and bass trombones are, but if the player CONTRIBUTES well to the sound of the section, I wouldn't care WHAT they were playing on!

That's all for now!
CJH

[MartyNeilan]

We were playing excerpts one afternoon and he A/B-ed the super-expensive "custom" 'bone against the old Bach.
The Bach sounded SO MUCH better (like turning on a light bulb) that the three of us who were being polled actually chuckled... The "S"-brand sounded VERY fuzzy compared to his Bach.
bloke "He's still playing the 'S' brand 'custom' 'bone anyway. "

One of the biggest problems with "custom" trombones is that there are so many options, that many players take things to extremes - biggest, darkest, heaviest, etc. Were they to buy a "stock" horn, it would probably work much better for them. It is almost amusing sometimes to see the poor choices made, and how they combine to make something virtually unplayable.
Imagine if the tuba world was the same - building a "custom" horn with six .880 bore pistons and a two .950 rotors, a leadpipe that was nothing but a huge straight tube, 30" cast iron bell - just the ticket for the Principle Kolledge players!

[Evil Ronnie]

Plus, I can and have "faked being an independent" by playing Db in 2nd with both valves on fast stuff (particularly the F-Eb-Db-C-Bb run in Candide). Works fine in 16th note runs.

Bob,

If you tune your second valve to d that gives you low Db (and in the staff) in long 2nd position. I understand that as I played dependent for years.

My question is: How is that "faking independent"? You are using a dependent horn as it is intended to be used?

[Evil Ronnie]

no, I mean the Db IN the staff. The biggest thing I did that for was a 16th note run (F Eb Db C Bb). I played it-
1st, 3rd, D2, F1, 1st

I understand that you mean in the staff.

Tell me how using both of you valves on a dependent bass is "faking independent"? There's nothing "faking independent" that I see here. You're just using both of your valves to play a sixteenth note run, right?

[Evil Ronnie]

Funny phrase? Not really.

My question is: Why say stuff that isn't true, accurate, or even close to the truth? Maybe remarks like the one above are why people on this forum and TTF are constantly wailin' on you?

Think more. Type less.

[MartyNeilan]

Evil Ronnie: 5 posts
Bob1062: 2166 posts

Poor ol' Bob gets enough grief from the regulars here. As newcomer to TubeNet (Welcome!) please try to have a little more patience with Bob, Bob has good intentions and you might even grow to like him after a while.

[TubaRay]

Poor ol' Bob gets enough grief from the regulars here. As newcomer to TubeNet (Welcome!) please try to have a little more patience with Bob, Bob has good intentions and you might even grow to like him after a while.

Well, it could happen.

[TubaRay]

Poor ol' Bob gets enough grief from the regulars here. As newcomer to TubeNet (Welcome!) please try to have a little more patience with Bob, Bob has good intentions and you might even grow to like him after a while.

Well, it could happen.

Oh Ray, I've ALWAYS liked you.

Hmmm. I must be doing something wrong.

[jsswadley]

Thanks everybody, especially to CJ from the Met. You reminded me that maybe the equipment aspect is less important that the player. In Vienna (before Bousfield) the first trombone Josel played a Holton of all things and he always sounded like a god on it. The second players had a Conn and a Laetsch and one of the bass trombonists was playing a German instrument until Stroecker arrived with his Bach. I think there's more room in an opera orchestra for different types of sound color than in the symphony orchestra. Of course a similar concept has to be there.What I find objectionable is the big lack of color in this particular Courtois and in the Edwards instruments in general. John

[tubafatness]

Funny phrase? Not really.

My question is: Why say stuff that isn't true, accurate, or even close to the truth? Maybe remarks like the one above are why people on this forum and TTF are constantly wailin' on you?

Think more. Type less.

Ouch....
I thought what Bob said was a little odd, until I saw the reasoning. It would have helped to describe which Db was being played, but that's just a small thing. What's with the acid?