ARBAN spoke French!

[Donn]

Just surfing around a little for clues to Arban's phonetic milieu, and found someone who claimed to speak Cajun French, commenting that he found it easier to understand the dialect in Lyon (where Arban was from.) So perhaps since many of you all are located in the South, perhaps someone is acquainted with a Cajun speaking person and could induce that person to utter the word attaque and see if any K's come out.

[Amilcare]

You have it! Actually I need all of these as there are few historic tutors in English. Even "embouchure" is from a misunderstanding of French flute teachers in 18th-century London.

The problem with an English "T" is that the tongue must retreat from the front of the mouth where it is at rest. This motion is against the direction of the air and makes an involuntary glottal closure all but inescapable.

Sorry about the verb contraction. My verb conjugations suffer;-)

What you have missed is the KU. Felix Desiré Ligner described it in near speech therapy terms. There is a hard C in French pronounced like K in English. Even before the early 19th-century flute tutors, no French method used it.

I have a friend whose ability to play very fast was amazing. He claimed he never used anything but T, but he had a very slight lisp when he spoke. Since there is a tiny fraction of an inch between the two tip of the tongue positions, I suspect he was doing everything correctly and not trying to pronounce a K in the back of the mouth. My friend is a tuba player.

The bottom line is that a single syllable was never used to play wind instruments, brass or flute or oboe even. I include cornetto as it was the focus of some of the most specific. The trumpet tutor by Fantini is useful. I caught Albrechtsberger in a botched plagiarism, so I discount virtually everything he says.

The back of the tongue was never and should never be used in articulation. This has been a terrible misunderstanding that has plagued our pedagogy too long, and must be corrected as Arnold Jacobs corrected the physiology of breathing.

As an Econ prof once pointed out to ITA, the need for secrecy in our pedagogy has vanished as playing our instruments no longer is economically viable. It's past time to share and promulgate the best playing techniques for the good of all.

[mark38655]

John Griffiths advocated for the use of the syllables da-ga, instead of the ta-ka or(worst) tee-kee that is sometimes taught.

I had a trumpet player/teacher colleague tell me once that the notion of staccato double tonguing was a myth because double tonguing was used only when the speed of the articulation was too fast to hear staccato. He went on to say that trumpet players often teach da-ga instead of ta-ka for double tonguing. I have used da-ga almost extensively both as a player and teacher when double tonguing.

[PMeuph]

Just surfing around a little for clues to Arban's phonetic milieu, and found someone who claimed to speak Cajun French, commenting that he found it easier to understand the dialect in Lyon (where Arban was from.) So perhaps since many of you all are located in the South, perhaps someone is acquainted with a Cajun speaking person and could induce that person to utter the word attaque and see if any K's come out.

From what I understand, there are many regional French dialects and in other countries where French is spoken. In the 18th century, Louis XIV decided that Parisians should adopt a more sophisticated way of speaking and insisted on the higher pronunciation. Some rural areas and areas of french speaking Canada still pronounce words lower. If I decide to speak with a Parisian accent (I can sort of pull it off) I find that everything is at the front of the mouth and on the tip of my tongue. That is really not the case with (as Donn said) Cajun French, and all others different styles of French.

Even "embouchure" is from a misunderstanding of French flute teachers in 18th-century London.

The funny thing is that "embouchure" in French is used to refer to the mouthpiece.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embouchure_%28musique%29" target="_blank

[trop2000]

fascinating discussion. I've often thought that what language someone speaks has a good deal to do with the nature of their sound and articulation. I find here in the u.s. that students with different regional accents show some differences in their playing that I think can at least partly be attributed to how they speak.

And interestingly, on anchor tonguing, Armando Ghitalla always taught that way, for some of his students it worked great, for others not. And, if I'm remembering any of this correctly (probably not), Ghitllla was part of the Boston lineage of trumpeters who went all the way back to Arbans' students, some of whom were the first to play in major U.S. orchestras.

For me I use t/k and seem to double tongue pretty decently. One thing I can't square though is :
"the problem with an English "T" is that the tongue must retreat from the front of the mouth where it is at rest. This motion is against the direction of the air and makes an involuntary glottal closure all but inescapable. "

I don't find that to be true inside my own mouth. I do think the vowel makes a big difference though. TEE for me is apt to produce a glottal response whereas TOH not so much. I guess practicing it for 20 years probably helped. Also I was always coached to have the smallest, purest consonant possible and get straight to my vowel. Lots of folks think "oh yes I use tee, toh" (or whatever) but when you ask them to speak it for you they say something more like tschee, or tschoo, with lots of extra crap in the consonant.

For me, I don't find that my toh retreats in the mouth, it seems to go straight down. On the other hand, TH actually seems to fire my tongue backwards. Then again, I never use or practice TH.

OK, now back to trying not to think about my tonguing syllables while attempting to make some music!

[Amilcare]

It's the soft TH, and it's forward.

Dialect rarely affects consonants. Especially single sounds.

The use of phonetics strikes me as an unnecessary crutch. I suggest them as mnemonic devices on the way to technical mastery.

This is why Ligner is superior to any other teacher from our past.

The problem is that real and perceived events are not the same.

[Donn]

Dialect rarely affects consonants. Especially single sounds.

That's a rather broad statement. You're welcome to claim that Lyonnais French K is exactly the same as Parisian or whatever K (excuse me, C/Qu), since I wouldn't know myself, but for example Spanish dialects vary, and Portuguese dialects vary, most noticeably in their consonants. And after all, what are they, and French, but dialects left to diverge over a few hundred years.

[Amilcare]

There is no K in French. Period.

That's why the flute teachers chose it. That K is found in NO LANGUAGE AT ALL!

So, get back to reality.

[chronolith]

Now I am wondering of theremin players from New York City sound different than elsewhere in the world.

[PMeuph]

There is no K in French. Period.

What is the sound at the end of this word?

http://www.larousse.com/en/dictionaries/french/attaque" target="_blank

[louish_006]

To settle things. My mother tongue is French and there is a K sound in French. It doesn't usually come under the form of a K per say, but most often than not in the form of a -que-(as in attaque) or in the form of a -Ca-co- as in (cadeau-gift).

But honestly, does it really matter where you tongue. I'm only a young 25 year tuba player, but I have seen a few very good players and I can tell you that none of them tongue in the same place. Some tongue in between the teeth where, supposedly, we should never tongue and sound extremely good. The most important is how it sounds when it comes out of the bell. It is the same question as how should our embouchures should be placed. Some peple say you should have it as equal as possible throughout the register, but many professional player's embouchures are all over the place. I guess the most important is how does it sound when it comes out of the mouthpiece and how is your airstream. Otherwise, we encounter the question of paralysis by analysis(watch the Bobo DVD for an example). Anyways, I don't really know why we should discuss so much about where to place the tongue as it is an extremely personal thing and we should never mess with a players placement of the articulation or embouchure if it sounds good. And if it doesn't sound good, go back to the first pages of the Arban and sing and buzz absolutely everything in as many different ways possible always using your imagination to produce the sound.

Personally, I think we wonder way too much about all the stuff when we should just think about beautiful sounds. It all goes back to Jacobs -song and wind- Ask the best players how they do it and you always get the same answers(good air and good buzz).

Just my 2 cents.

[Amilcare]

You're missing the point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

French has a HARD C!!!!!!!!!!

That's why they also have "ç" This retains an "S" sound when used with "a" or "u"

Get out your French dictionary. There is ONE PAGE of K words.

K IS NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL FRENCH ALPHABET!!!!!!!!!!

Let me re-explain. When French flute teachers at the beginning of the nineteenth century were trying to explain the sound produced by an anchor tongue, they chose the "foreign" letter "K" to suggest this sound, that actually exists in no language.

Arban copied them. Read his introduction.

This is nearly a century before linguistics or speech pathology or speech therapy.

Look at a pronouncing dictionary. Linguists have their own alphabet to explain the sounds of words. There is even a second alphabet for whispering.

So, the "K" in this context is not the hard "C" that has that sound or as you so nobly point out in "attaque." It is an initial sound formed by touching the tip of the tongue to the lower teeth and articulating the air against the upper teeth slightly behind the tip. The movement is less than 1/32 of an inch, minuscule by any standard. Done well, there is no change in the resulting note.

Please believe me in this. It is very important. I have studio of 13 college euph majors. I work them intensively using Ligner's materials. At all levels of ability and endeavor, they produce clear, round notes with amazing quality of sound.

We have misunderstood for too long the real history of our art. And this is why I wish Wes had gone a bit further than correcting the egregious errors in Carl Fischer.

In all, nearly 20 students have been put through this. Much of it reinforces what we've all learned from Arnold Jacobs, because articulating well requires lots of air. All of the petty tricks students have will not work here.

[Amilcare]

The "K" was used as it was not part of the French alphabet.

These men did not write "TU-CU" which would have achieved what you wrote.

I would hope that as a francophone you might help me here.

BTW, a family name is Nussear, a corruption of LeSeur;-)

[Dutch]

The phrase TU-CU, with cu pronounced sharply as in attaque, would not survive in any French method or textbook as it would sound like TU-Q which is an obscenity in French. Tu means you and “Q” , due to its shape, refers to the anus (as in “Les salariés de Quick en ont ras-le-Q !”). In France, TU-CU may be in the mind of a student, but never in the mouth.
In Cajun country this may be different, I just don’t know.

Meanwhile, I wonder if Arban ever travelled abroad and picked up the English “K” like in knickers or kneedrops, that would put T-K in a new perspective.

[Michael Bush]

The "K" was used as it was not part of the French alphabet.

Are you saying it was just a random symbol for an unrelated sound?

Why don't you try writing out a representation of this mysterious sound phonetically. That might help.

[Amilcare]

It's an "anchor tongue." When hummed or "whooshed" there is a hint of a "hard-C" sound.

It must be taught by tongue placement as no spoken language has this sound.

[Michael Bush]

Le francais est ma langue maternelle. Il y a un anglicisme très evident dans vos formulations et dans votre manque de conjugation du mot lire (lis).

I been reading back through what I might of missed in this thread about how to make the sound under discussion, and was amused by this. I never talked nothing but English for a lot of my life, but I done messed up a lot of verbs anyway. I should of been more careful!

It's an "anchor tongue." When hummed or "whooshed" there is a hint of a "hard-C" sound.

It must be taught by tongue placement as no spoken language has this sound.

Okay. I'll play around with it, because I'm curious and will try anything once or twice, but it's probably rather late in the day.

[ghmerrill]

I been reading back through what I might of missed in this thread about how to make the sound under discussion, and was amused by this. I never talked nothing but English for a lot of my life, but I done messed up a lot of verbs anyway. I should of been more careful!

Verbs are over-rated. You've got the prepositions nailed.

[Dutch]

Let’s hope that nobody swallowed his tongue, in an attempt to demonstrate the habits of generations of English-speaking followers of Arban, all misled by their ignorance of the French K.

One wonders if Thomas Leleu (different thread) is a TaKa or a Daga player.
Probably he would think of this discussion as “un caca boudin”.

[JB]

...Thomas Leleu (different thread) ... Probably he would think of this discussion as “un caca boudin”.

+1


(Or would that be ka-ka ?)