ARBAN spoke French!

[Amilcare]

I, for one, am very disappointed with Wes Jacobs' re-issue of the METHODE.

While it's nice to have a bass clef edition with the right notes, the real book is still to be found. The Carl Fischer edition was a pirated edition. In fact, its basis was an edition put out after Arban's death.

Arban left many clues. The most important was his admission that he received his tonguing advice from flute players, who also spoke French;-)

A French "T" is formed like our English "soft th." It is a forward motion, not the backward motion of ours. Also, "K" was not part of the normal French alphabet in the 19th century. Its use as a phoneme by flute teachers was an attempt to suggest a sound that exists in no language. It's an "anchor tongue" that certain sax and clarinet players have long supported.

The other interesting part is that historical tutors always presented articulations as pairs. Functionally, this means the "gray area" we often think of separating single and multiple tonguing is a myth. In fact, historical tutors present us with as many as 4-5 pairs of syllables.

Generations of English-speaking players have been getting it wrong. It's time we got it right;-)

[PMeuph]

In fact, historical tutors ....

I haven't looked at the Wes Jacobs with enough detail to give it the assessment you do. Maybe you could write a review for the ITEA journal.
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What I find interesting about Arban is that it doesn't only serve has a historical tutor. Even if the text is misunderstood, there is enough quality exercises in it to develop technique. If one gets through the Arban and masters all the exercises at a wide range of tempos and dynamics, then one is surely a very apt player.

One of the best points I learned in a Masterclass with the late John Griffiths is that the TUBA IS NOT A TRUMPET!...... Using the same sound conception, same articulating model, the same airstream, etc as a trumpet player will not yield great results on the tuba... John Griffiths advocated for the use of the syllables da-ga, instead of the ta-ka or(worst) tee-kee that is sometimes taught.

Since Arban originally originally conceived his work for cornet, we have to accept that any adaptation will be a compromise. Also, I think we can take into account the fact that lots has changed in the past 150 years, in terms of instrument size, bore, mouthpiece shape, depth, etc... I think these have to be accounted for in our evaluation of "historical" documents...

[Amilcare]

A brass instrument is a brass instrument.

There never was a "K."

[Amilcare]

It's hard to do this on an iDevice.

As to Bell, I cannot say, though I have known students of his, none has seemed to promote this that I know of.

The historical fact is that too much good pedagogy has been lost, and bad technique has supplanted good practices, especially in public education.

There is no "K" in French. It was an early attempt to supplant a sound that was made when humming or whooshing with the anchor tongue. The flute players who started all this are still under-studied in the flute world. The Tarr/Dickey book below stops just short of 1800 when the flute teachers introduced the "K."

Get your local library to buy TARR/DICKEY Articulation in Early Wind Music (ISBN 13-978-905786-02-6)

Or better yet, buy your own as this is the sort of thing we brass players need to support by our bucks. It's under $120.

[chronolith]

I am curious. Has anyone done any kind of rudimentary analysis of the playing (and especially the articulation) styles of various players who speak different languages? Perhaps someone has. If so, was it meaningful in any way? I have my theory but I am no expert in these things.

As Doc says, it boils down to what is coming out of the bell.

[Michael Bush]

I am curious. Has anyone done any kind of rudimentary analysis of the playing (and especially the articulation) styles of various players who speak different languages? Perhaps someone has. If so, was it meaningful in any way? I have my theory but I am no expert in these things.

As Doc says, it boils down to what is coming out of the bell.

Exactly. It is actually a very interesting point from a player's perspective. I do wonder how much difference it makes out in the seats.

[Alex Kidston]

Here's something - I've a second-hand quote from a student of UK trumpet teacher Howard Snell, who used to extol the virtues of the Yorkshire accent specifically in terms of brass playing, I think mostly dealing with colour of sound with particular reference to the brass band tradition...I think a cross-cultural study of sound concept would be a fascinating addition to our awareness of pedagogy and schools of playing / teaching...American, French, German, English (with sub-groups Scottish, Welsh), Russian, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Swiss, Danish, Israeli, Portugese, Irish...sounds like an economic summit

Alex

[PMeuph]

There is no "K" in French.

Professeur, pouvez-vous prononcer le mot attaque?

[hup_d_dup]

There is no "K" in French.

Professeur, pouvez-vous prononcer le mot attaque?

Ha, un jeu de mot!

[Amilcare]

Je parle et lire le français assez bien. Aussi l'espagnol, l'italien, et l'allemand.

Qu'est que vous pourrait faire?

[Amilcare]

[PMeuph]

Je parle et lire le français assez bien. Aussi l'espagnol, l'italien, et l'allemand.

Qu'est que vous pourrait faire?

Le francais est ma langue maternelle. Il y a un anglicisme très evident dans vos formulations et dans votre manque de conjugation du mot lire (lis).


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Is there only one universal French pronunciation, in exactly the same manner that there is only one way of pronouncing in English?

[Donn]

Just surfing around a little for clues to Arban's phonetic milieu, and found someone who claimed to speak Cajun French, commenting that he found it easier to understand the dialect in Lyon (where Arban was from.) So perhaps since many of you all are located in the South, perhaps someone is acquainted with a Cajun speaking person and could induce that person to utter the word attaque and see if any K's come out.

[Amilcare]

You have it! Actually I need all of these as there are few historic tutors in English. Even "embouchure" is from a misunderstanding of French flute teachers in 18th-century London.

The problem with an English "T" is that the tongue must retreat from the front of the mouth where it is at rest. This motion is against the direction of the air and makes an involuntary glottal closure all but inescapable.

Sorry about the verb contraction. My verb conjugations suffer;-)

What you have missed is the KU. Felix Desiré Ligner described it in near speech therapy terms. There is a hard C in French pronounced like K in English. Even before the early 19th-century flute tutors, no French method used it.

I have a friend whose ability to play very fast was amazing. He claimed he never used anything but T, but he had a very slight lisp when he spoke. Since there is a tiny fraction of an inch between the two tip of the tongue positions, I suspect he was doing everything correctly and not trying to pronounce a K in the back of the mouth. My friend is a tuba player.

The bottom line is that a single syllable was never used to play wind instruments, brass or flute or oboe even. I include cornetto as it was the focus of some of the most specific. The trumpet tutor by Fantini is useful. I caught Albrechtsberger in a botched plagiarism, so I discount virtually everything he says.

The back of the tongue was never and should never be used in articulation. This has been a terrible misunderstanding that has plagued our pedagogy too long, and must be corrected as Arnold Jacobs corrected the physiology of breathing.

As an Econ prof once pointed out to ITA, the need for secrecy in our pedagogy has vanished as playing our instruments no longer is economically viable. It's past time to share and promulgate the best playing techniques for the good of all.

[mark38655]

John Griffiths advocated for the use of the syllables da-ga, instead of the ta-ka or(worst) tee-kee that is sometimes taught.

I had a trumpet player/teacher colleague tell me once that the notion of staccato double tonguing was a myth because double tonguing was used only when the speed of the articulation was too fast to hear staccato. He went on to say that trumpet players often teach da-ga instead of ta-ka for double tonguing. I have used da-ga almost extensively both as a player and teacher when double tonguing.

[PMeuph]

Just surfing around a little for clues to Arban's phonetic milieu, and found someone who claimed to speak Cajun French, commenting that he found it easier to understand the dialect in Lyon (where Arban was from.) So perhaps since many of you all are located in the South, perhaps someone is acquainted with a Cajun speaking person and could induce that person to utter the word attaque and see if any K's come out.

From what I understand, there are many regional French dialects and in other countries where French is spoken. In the 18th century, Louis XIV decided that Parisians should adopt a more sophisticated way of speaking and insisted on the higher pronunciation. Some rural areas and areas of french speaking Canada still pronounce words lower. If I decide to speak with a Parisian accent (I can sort of pull it off) I find that everything is at the front of the mouth and on the tip of my tongue. That is really not the case with (as Donn said) Cajun French, and all others different styles of French.

Even "embouchure" is from a misunderstanding of French flute teachers in 18th-century London.

The funny thing is that "embouchure" in French is used to refer to the mouthpiece.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embouchure_%28musique%29" target="_blank

[trop2000]

fascinating discussion. I've often thought that what language someone speaks has a good deal to do with the nature of their sound and articulation. I find here in the u.s. that students with different regional accents show some differences in their playing that I think can at least partly be attributed to how they speak.

And interestingly, on anchor tonguing, Armando Ghitalla always taught that way, for some of his students it worked great, for others not. And, if I'm remembering any of this correctly (probably not), Ghitllla was part of the Boston lineage of trumpeters who went all the way back to Arbans' students, some of whom were the first to play in major U.S. orchestras.

For me I use t/k and seem to double tongue pretty decently. One thing I can't square though is :
"the problem with an English "T" is that the tongue must retreat from the front of the mouth where it is at rest. This motion is against the direction of the air and makes an involuntary glottal closure all but inescapable. "

I don't find that to be true inside my own mouth. I do think the vowel makes a big difference though. TEE for me is apt to produce a glottal response whereas TOH not so much. I guess practicing it for 20 years probably helped. Also I was always coached to have the smallest, purest consonant possible and get straight to my vowel. Lots of folks think "oh yes I use tee, toh" (or whatever) but when you ask them to speak it for you they say something more like tschee, or tschoo, with lots of extra crap in the consonant.

For me, I don't find that my toh retreats in the mouth, it seems to go straight down. On the other hand, TH actually seems to fire my tongue backwards. Then again, I never use or practice TH.

OK, now back to trying not to think about my tonguing syllables while attempting to make some music!

[Amilcare]

It's the soft TH, and it's forward.

Dialect rarely affects consonants. Especially single sounds.

The use of phonetics strikes me as an unnecessary crutch. I suggest them as mnemonic devices on the way to technical mastery.

This is why Ligner is superior to any other teacher from our past.

The problem is that real and perceived events are not the same.

[Donn]

Dialect rarely affects consonants. Especially single sounds.

That's a rather broad statement. You're welcome to claim that Lyonnais French K is exactly the same as Parisian or whatever K (excuse me, C/Qu), since I wouldn't know myself, but for example Spanish dialects vary, and Portuguese dialects vary, most noticeably in their consonants. And after all, what are they, and French, but dialects left to diverge over a few hundred years.

[Amilcare]

There is no K in French. Period.

That's why the flute teachers chose it. That K is found in NO LANGUAGE AT ALL!

So, get back to reality.