Does Country of Origin Matter When You Buy a Horn?

[ghmerrill]

Yes.
Besides, Madame Mao hated the tuba, why would I want one made there?

Precisely because she hated it?

[uncle jerd]

No Chinese tubas, or anything else if I can help it, for me.

Ken

[MartyNeilan]

Many years ago I played in a church/community band in New Jersey. I usually played a big Mirafone at the time. The other tuba player was in his mid 50's and played a top action 3 valve compensating Besson BBb (very in tune, I might add.) He and I never really had any issues, and he never had much to say about my horn. One week I brought my Yamaha YFB621 for some reason. He jumped all over me for playing a Japanese horn, and may have even slipped in a Pearl Harbor reference. In that context, I think the irony that I usually played a German tuba was completely missed on him.

(The fellow was a gentleman and apologized the next week. I must have struck a sensitive spot with the Yamaha.)

[ghmerrill]

People forget (if indeed many living ever knew) how reviled the Germans were during and shortly after WWII. A longstanding friend of mine (and professor for some years now at Notre Dame University) mentioned some years ago that the depth of war-time and post-war feeling was so intense that one often heard references to the "so-called Germans" simply because "so-called" was regarded as such a derogatory adjective. I recall my family having German-born friends when I was a child, who (though they did not go to the length of changing their name -- "Schlenkermann") were constantly vigilant to be considered as "American" rather than "German". It was from Mrs. Schlenkermann that I originally learned German, even though her own daughter refused to do so.

How ironic that we are now exhorted to prefer German tubas to all others. My Prussian genes are very confused. Perhaps we should up Bort's ante and require that any tuba PLAYER document his German heritage. (Oh, I'm sorry. Actually Bort's proposal does not involve German heritage but only the ability to speak German. So if the all the Chinese tuba makers learn German, then their instruments will immediately become acceptable. That seems fair.)

[Doug Elliott]

I was in China over this past Christmas and New Years, touring with an orchestra. I went in quite a few instrument shops in Beijing and saw pretty much nothing but junk for sale in the way of brass instruments. I didn't see any high-end music stores at all.

I was surprised to learn some history I didn't know, concerning German colonization of part of China starting in 1898. The Tsingtao Brewery was founded in 1903 by German settlers in Qingdao (current spelling).

So there actually is a German connection to China...

[Dutchtown Sousa]

Well the best tuba I have ever played was a German Miraphone 186-4U BBb, the second best (tied) was a Russian St. Petersburg 202 BBb, second best (tied) was a Japanese Yamaha BBb (not sure on the model but looking at their current models, it could have been a YBB-641). The third worse was a Japanese Yamaha YSH-411 BBb sousaphone, second worse was a Japanese Yamaha BBb tuba (not sure of the model but it has 4 piston valves), and the worst was a English Besson BBb 3+1 tuba (not sure of the model).
The 3 best were all rotary valve tubas while the 3 worst were piston valve (not as if that means anything, just an observation, as piston valves have their advantages and disadvantages much like rotary valves). The 3 worst were all pretty beat up and not properly maintained. From what little I know about tubas, I don't think the country of origin really matters (Chinese horns might not be total crap, never have played one but some things the Chinese make, such as knock-off small Honda engines, are just as good as their counterparts), but out of pride I would probably say western countries make better tubas (or instruments in general) than eastern countries.

[Biggs]

out of pride I would probably say western countries make better tubas (or instruments in general) than eastern countries.

Take that, gamelans.

[Lingon]

I was in China over this past Christmas and New Years, touring with an orchestra. I went in quite a few instrument shops in Beijing and saw pretty much nothing but junk for sale in the way of brass instruments. I didn't see any high-end music stores at all.

I was surprised to learn some history I didn't know, concerning German colonization of part of China starting in 1898. The Tsingtao Brewery was founded in 1903 by German settlers in Qingdao (current spelling).

So there actually is a German connection to China...

Interesting observation. Our orchestra also did a China/Japan tour two years ago. We also visited a couple of music stores in Shanghai and Beijing. As you said regarding brass instruments, only junk. Their own national instruments were all over the place though. So are those instruments we see here only meant for export?!

Thanks for the history about Tsingtao.

[Tubaryan12]

Not one bit. I'm only interested in the best horn the money I am willing to spend at the time of purchase can buy.

[b.williams]

Yes, in that brand name and year of manufacture might indicate or imply country of origin. Since I love to hunt for horns on eBay, brand name and year of manufacture (which often indicate country of origin) are very often predictors of the quality of an instrument. If I had easy access to all the brands available, brand name and year of manufacture, therefore country of origin, would not matter.

[Rick Denney]

Dave, your poll is leaving out the fundamental link between supply and demand: price.

Since you didn't bring up mainland-Chinese instruments, I'll leave them out for the moment. In general, western German tubas have been over-priced, though some models (just some) have been so good that price was irrelevant. Swiss tubas have been similar, except even moreso. Eastern German tubas (when they were Communist) made superb instruments with competent construction. Czech tubas have been poorly built, but inexpensive. Japanese tubas have been competently made (without the attention to detail of German tubas), but some of them quite well designed and a good value. Taiwanese tubas have been built to a price point for decades. English tubas have been often poorly made, sometimes well made, but all conforming to a particular ancient British design that one either loves or hates. French tubas of yore are often tuba-shaped objects (does anyone really want a 75-year-old Couesnon 3-valve Eb peashooter tuba?) Russian tubas have been poorly made according to a good design, and priced so that adults with some skills can derive value from them. Italian tubas have been just...weird. Some playable, some not, like French tubas. American tubas have been well made, poorly made, well made, poorly made, or well made, depending on brand and era, and some of them are good enough to overcome being poorly made while others make you wonder why they put all that beauty into such a dog, but many were made by German immigrants according to standards they brought with them. There are even Brazilian tubas that vary all over the map in quality--there were German immigrants in Brazil, too.

I would never pay a Miraphone price for a Cerveny. I would never pay a Hirsbrunner price for a Miraphone. I would never pay a Hirsbrunner price for a Hirsbrunner. I could state phrases in that way for two more paragraphs. Suffice to say, I bought a Cerveny when Czechoslovakia was still a dictatorial Communist country under the Soviet yoke, before the "end" of the Cold War but after 1968 when the regime there demonstrated its feelings about democracy. I bought a B&S F tuba after unification, but that instrument was made when East Germany was a (despotic) Communist country, even more evil than the current (despotic) government in China. I have bought eastern German tubas after unification. I bought a Japanese tuba, because of what it did and because I could afford it. I own one tuba made in Germany but with an American brand. I own an American tuba that demonstrates very poor factory craftsmanship, but is still one of the best tubas I've ever played. I guess I can write what I prefer in terms of national origin all day long, but I doubt my buying habits will provide any usable evidence.

Rick "who prefers good tubas that he can afford, knowing that they are all made by people who need to eat" Denney

[The Big Ben]

I was surprised to learn some history I didn't know, concerning German colonization of part of China starting in 1898. The Tsingtao Brewery was founded in 1903 by German settlers in Qingdao (current spelling).

Indeed. The "Splitting of the Chinese Melon" as it were. All of the colonial powers had a little piece of China. There is a lot of interesting information if one looks at the period between the American Civil War and the Great War. Some might find it interesting to find that Japan was on the same side as the U.S. in WWI. Yep, they wanted the German colonial islands down by Samoa to use as a navy base. One of the reasons the U.S. wanted/obtained Hawaii.

[bort]

So Rick, is that a yes or a no?

[dwerden]

Dave, your poll is leaving out the fundamental link between supply and demand: price.

I didn't go there because I wanted a more pure question. In several industries there are, and have been for a long time, folks who have strong preferences based on country. I suspect that a large percentage of those folks would not be greatly influenced by price. Of course, that's just a guess.

While in the Coast Guard Band I met and heard many vets from WWII. Some still had hard feelings toward the countries we were fighting, particularly Germany and Japan. (There don't seem to be as many hard feelings about Italy.) But we seem to get along pretty well with those countries now. Then what about Russia? They were on our side in WWII; not so much in more recent years. So where would the bias/preference be with Russia?

And some might object to the whole concept of scads of clones coming out of China. But as a euphonium player, if I object solely on the grounds of clone-ness, that leaves me and my brother and sister euphoniumists in a bad way. Virtually every major pro-level euphonium made today could be called a Besson clone (and Besson may have originally been copying some other design, for all I know).

So with all those factors, and with polling software that allows a maximum of 5 questions, I decided to keep it simple. Perhaps I'll follow up with some more granular questions in specific areas. In the meantime, it's interesting to see the responses!

[Rick Denney]

So Rick, is that a yes or a no?

It wasn't a yes-or-no question. And it certainly is not a yes-or-no answer.

Rick "who prefers good tubas that he can afford"
Denney

[sousaphone68]

Not one bit. I'm only interested in the best horn the money I am willing to spend at the time of purchase can buy.

+1 wish I had been as concise and short as this

[Donn]

Then what about Russia? They were on our side in WWII; not so much in more recent years. So where would the bias/preference be with Russia?

I've recently read some interesting arguments to the effect that we're really missing a bet by not cultivating more of an alliance with Russia.

"We" meaning the US, to the author, but same principles for the rest of "us." What "us" means is worth thinking about.

[bort]

So Rick, is that a yes or a no?

It wasn't a yes-or-no question. And it certainly is not a yes-or-no answer.

Rick "who prefers good tubas that he can afford"
Denney

Respectfully, the question was "Does country of origin matter?", which is a yes/no question. The choices in Dave's poll aren't worded that way, because a simple "yes" and "no" mean very little on their own... The explanation is the interesting part, but it's still good to know the yes/no answer first before diving into explanations.

So given your explanation (which is interesting), I think you're saying "yes." It's not the only thing, but it does matter in determining your expectations and price considerations...is that what you're saying?

[The Big Ben]

While in the Coast Guard Band I met and heard many vets from WWII. Some still had hard feelings toward the countries we were fighting, particularly Germany and Japan. (There don't seem to be as many hard feelings about Italy.) But we seem to get along pretty well with those countries now. Then what about Russia? They were on our side in WWII; not so much in more recent years. So where would the bias/preference be with Russia?

Being allies with the USSR was the the U.S.'s 'deal with the devil'. Hearing after the fact the conditions in the 20s and 30s in Uncle Joe's USSR, one could ponder who was the 'most evil'; the ones we fought or the ones which were on our side. The Allies might not have won the war in Europe without the cooperation of the USSR.

Preference wise, the Russians have a lot of poor quality to face up to from the Soviets days. The USSR had advanced technology (aircraft especially) and they stole some first class optical and photographic technology from the Germans after the war but you sure wouldn't think so when looking at export Soviet goods from the 60s and 70s...

[PMeuph]

.....But as a euphonium player, if I object solely on the grounds of clone-ness, that leaves me and my brother and sister euphoniumists in a bad way. Virtually every major pro-level euphonium made today could be called a Besson clone (and Besson may have originally been copying some other design, for all I know).

Also, there is a fundamental difference between euphonium players and tuba players with regards to buying instruments in general. Tuba players not only have more models, they also have more keys. Euphonium players basically have about 4 options when buying new horns. (Compensating 4 valve, non-compensating 4 valve, 3 valve, and rotary horns). I would try to list all the variants on tubas but could probably not do so in such a concise manner.

I would venture to say that most of the clones sold to amateurs are the 4 valve compensating or 4 valve non-comp. The rotary valve euph is probably more popular in europe and more likely sells as a "novelty" item here.