Does Country of Origin Matter When You Buy a Horn?

[Tubaryan12]

Not one bit. I'm only interested in the best horn the money I am willing to spend at the time of purchase can buy.

[b.williams]

Yes, in that brand name and year of manufacture might indicate or imply country of origin. Since I love to hunt for horns on eBay, brand name and year of manufacture (which often indicate country of origin) are very often predictors of the quality of an instrument. If I had easy access to all the brands available, brand name and year of manufacture, therefore country of origin, would not matter.

[Rick Denney]

Dave, your poll is leaving out the fundamental link between supply and demand: price.

Since you didn't bring up mainland-Chinese instruments, I'll leave them out for the moment. In general, western German tubas have been over-priced, though some models (just some) have been so good that price was irrelevant. Swiss tubas have been similar, except even moreso. Eastern German tubas (when they were Communist) made superb instruments with competent construction. Czech tubas have been poorly built, but inexpensive. Japanese tubas have been competently made (without the attention to detail of German tubas), but some of them quite well designed and a good value. Taiwanese tubas have been built to a price point for decades. English tubas have been often poorly made, sometimes well made, but all conforming to a particular ancient British design that one either loves or hates. French tubas of yore are often tuba-shaped objects (does anyone really want a 75-year-old Couesnon 3-valve Eb peashooter tuba?) Russian tubas have been poorly made according to a good design, and priced so that adults with some skills can derive value from them. Italian tubas have been just...weird. Some playable, some not, like French tubas. American tubas have been well made, poorly made, well made, poorly made, or well made, depending on brand and era, and some of them are good enough to overcome being poorly made while others make you wonder why they put all that beauty into such a dog, but many were made by German immigrants according to standards they brought with them. There are even Brazilian tubas that vary all over the map in quality--there were German immigrants in Brazil, too.

I would never pay a Miraphone price for a Cerveny. I would never pay a Hirsbrunner price for a Miraphone. I would never pay a Hirsbrunner price for a Hirsbrunner. I could state phrases in that way for two more paragraphs. Suffice to say, I bought a Cerveny when Czechoslovakia was still a dictatorial Communist country under the Soviet yoke, before the "end" of the Cold War but after 1968 when the regime there demonstrated its feelings about democracy. I bought a B&S F tuba after unification, but that instrument was made when East Germany was a (despotic) Communist country, even more evil than the current (despotic) government in China. I have bought eastern German tubas after unification. I bought a Japanese tuba, because of what it did and because I could afford it. I own one tuba made in Germany but with an American brand. I own an American tuba that demonstrates very poor factory craftsmanship, but is still one of the best tubas I've ever played. I guess I can write what I prefer in terms of national origin all day long, but I doubt my buying habits will provide any usable evidence.

Rick "who prefers good tubas that he can afford, knowing that they are all made by people who need to eat" Denney

[The Big Ben]

I was surprised to learn some history I didn't know, concerning German colonization of part of China starting in 1898. The Tsingtao Brewery was founded in 1903 by German settlers in Qingdao (current spelling).

Indeed. The "Splitting of the Chinese Melon" as it were. All of the colonial powers had a little piece of China. There is a lot of interesting information if one looks at the period between the American Civil War and the Great War. Some might find it interesting to find that Japan was on the same side as the U.S. in WWI. Yep, they wanted the German colonial islands down by Samoa to use as a navy base. One of the reasons the U.S. wanted/obtained Hawaii.

[bort]

So Rick, is that a yes or a no?

[dwerden]

Dave, your poll is leaving out the fundamental link between supply and demand: price.

I didn't go there because I wanted a more pure question. In several industries there are, and have been for a long time, folks who have strong preferences based on country. I suspect that a large percentage of those folks would not be greatly influenced by price. Of course, that's just a guess.

While in the Coast Guard Band I met and heard many vets from WWII. Some still had hard feelings toward the countries we were fighting, particularly Germany and Japan. (There don't seem to be as many hard feelings about Italy.) But we seem to get along pretty well with those countries now. Then what about Russia? They were on our side in WWII; not so much in more recent years. So where would the bias/preference be with Russia?

And some might object to the whole concept of scads of clones coming out of China. But as a euphonium player, if I object solely on the grounds of clone-ness, that leaves me and my brother and sister euphoniumists in a bad way. Virtually every major pro-level euphonium made today could be called a Besson clone (and Besson may have originally been copying some other design, for all I know).

So with all those factors, and with polling software that allows a maximum of 5 questions, I decided to keep it simple. Perhaps I'll follow up with some more granular questions in specific areas. In the meantime, it's interesting to see the responses!

[Rick Denney]

So Rick, is that a yes or a no?

It wasn't a yes-or-no question. And it certainly is not a yes-or-no answer.

Rick "who prefers good tubas that he can afford"
Denney

[sousaphone68]

Not one bit. I'm only interested in the best horn the money I am willing to spend at the time of purchase can buy.

+1 wish I had been as concise and short as this

[Donn]

Then what about Russia? They were on our side in WWII; not so much in more recent years. So where would the bias/preference be with Russia?

I've recently read some interesting arguments to the effect that we're really missing a bet by not cultivating more of an alliance with Russia.

"We" meaning the US, to the author, but same principles for the rest of "us." What "us" means is worth thinking about.

[bort]

So Rick, is that a yes or a no?

It wasn't a yes-or-no question. And it certainly is not a yes-or-no answer.

Rick "who prefers good tubas that he can afford"
Denney

Respectfully, the question was "Does country of origin matter?", which is a yes/no question. The choices in Dave's poll aren't worded that way, because a simple "yes" and "no" mean very little on their own... The explanation is the interesting part, but it's still good to know the yes/no answer first before diving into explanations.

So given your explanation (which is interesting), I think you're saying "yes." It's not the only thing, but it does matter in determining your expectations and price considerations...is that what you're saying?

[The Big Ben]

While in the Coast Guard Band I met and heard many vets from WWII. Some still had hard feelings toward the countries we were fighting, particularly Germany and Japan. (There don't seem to be as many hard feelings about Italy.) But we seem to get along pretty well with those countries now. Then what about Russia? They were on our side in WWII; not so much in more recent years. So where would the bias/preference be with Russia?

Being allies with the USSR was the the U.S.'s 'deal with the devil'. Hearing after the fact the conditions in the 20s and 30s in Uncle Joe's USSR, one could ponder who was the 'most evil'; the ones we fought or the ones which were on our side. The Allies might not have won the war in Europe without the cooperation of the USSR.

Preference wise, the Russians have a lot of poor quality to face up to from the Soviets days. The USSR had advanced technology (aircraft especially) and they stole some first class optical and photographic technology from the Germans after the war but you sure wouldn't think so when looking at export Soviet goods from the 60s and 70s...

[PMeuph]

.....But as a euphonium player, if I object solely on the grounds of clone-ness, that leaves me and my brother and sister euphoniumists in a bad way. Virtually every major pro-level euphonium made today could be called a Besson clone (and Besson may have originally been copying some other design, for all I know).

Also, there is a fundamental difference between euphonium players and tuba players with regards to buying instruments in general. Tuba players not only have more models, they also have more keys. Euphonium players basically have about 4 options when buying new horns. (Compensating 4 valve, non-compensating 4 valve, 3 valve, and rotary horns). I would try to list all the variants on tubas but could probably not do so in such a concise manner.

I would venture to say that most of the clones sold to amateurs are the 4 valve compensating or 4 valve non-comp. The rotary valve euph is probably more popular in europe and more likely sells as a "novelty" item here.

[pgym]

Respectfully, the question was "Does country of origin matter?", which is a yes/no question.

The question was phrased in a way that assumes that country of origin is a primary criterion when buying a horn, that can be answered in isolation.

As Mr. Denny's answer illustrates, there are other--and for many, if not most would-be buyers--more important criteria to consider when buying a horn: criteria that may relegate country-of-origin to secondary or tertiary importance if not render it entirely moot, and in so doing, shows that framing the question as a "yes/no" dilemma, in isolation from other considerations, is both simplistic and fallacious.

[Rick Denney]

So given your explanation (which is interesting), I think you're saying "yes." It's not the only thing, but it does matter in determining your expectations and price considerations...is that what you're saying?

Actually, what I'm saying is that when people are "just talking", it matters, but when money is on the line, it doesn't, because the price is set to offset their preference. That is, of course, a generality. But any piece of junk has a price point at which somebody will buy it, even if just for scrap. Very few even unplayable instruments go straight to the landfill.

So, when you ask people their opinion, what level of commitment to that opinion are you using to test your answers? Without thinking through that, the opinion is not worth much. The price they are willing to pay is the measure, and in my opinion (with respect to Dave), makes the question less pure when it is not considered.

If he merely wanted some anecdotal data to consider, he's getting that.

Edit: I could have answered it this way, without a poll: Would you pay as much for a Chinese-made Miraphone clone as for a German-made Miraphone, if everything was equal about the two instruments? If you won't, then you have demonstrated a preference based on country of origin (or a belief that such preference will exist when you go to sell the instrument). Of course, all else is not equal, but I can envision a day when it is. That the Chinese clones have to sell for some small fraction of what a new German original sells for is evidence of preference that is far more accurate than people expressing opinions to which they may not be committed.

Rick "who'll settle for 'it shouldn't have been a yes/no question'" Denney

[Donn]

Actually, what I'm saying is that when people are "just talking", it matters, but when money is on the line, it doesn't, because the price is set to offset their preference. That is, of course, a generality. But any piece of junk has a price point at which somebody will buy it, even if just for scrap. Very few even unplayable instruments go straight to the landfill.

But the question is not whether somebody would buy a tuba no matter what its origin. The question is whether origin would make a difference in your decision. Everything you're saying seems to imply that it would, why not just say so and be done with it?

[sousaphone68]

1/777

OK I will ask what is 1/777 ?

[imperialbari]

0,00128700129

[ghmerrill]

Also, there is a fundamental difference between euphonium players and tuba players with regards to buying instruments in general. Tuba players not only have more models, they also have more keys.

While to some degree this is true, it is largely a matter of fashion (or "à la mode", if we wish to follow some of the recommendations in a recent thread concerning Arban, according to which we should be thinking in French) There are in fact a significant number of instruments reasonably called "euphoniums" (or perhaps 'barytons', or even "tenor horns" -- the terminology here is hardly rigid or precise). There are all these crazy Europeans -- frequently German-speaking, it must be admitted -- running around the Alps (and other mountain ranges). They are having a really good time playing Blasintrumenten of various sorts that LOOK like baritones or euphoniums, and you can even order an impressive range of these things (if you have the funding) from American distributors or eBay (or in some cases, Chinese distributors). Three valves, four valves, five valves ... Knock yourself out. Czech, German, whatever. And never mind that over time the borders of the European countries moved back and forth pretty much like a pendulum. Drop into Alsace (e.g., Strasbourg) and see how much German is spoken.

I am reflecting now that I'm not supposed to understand and benefit from Arban unless I read French and am steeped in the milieu in which Arban was writing, I am not supposed to understand the Koran unless I can read it in Arabic. I'm not supposed to understand Plato unless I can read it in the original Greek. Hell, if I walk a half mile down my road I guess I'm not supposed to understand my neighbor.

The message I take a way from all this is that at certain points we should regard some people as bad and not buy stuff from them. Okay. But it doesn't meant that their stuff isn't good. It just means that for reasons other than quality we don't want to buy it. Then we should argue about that and not try to make the quality argument when that isn't at all the point. Unless you distinguish between "I wouldn't buy from X because X's products are crap" and "I wouldn't buy from X because there are political or economic reasons not to", then any survey asking whether you would buy from X is meaningless.

[PMeuph]

Also, there is a fundamental difference between euphonium players and tuba players with regards to buying instruments in general. Tuba players not only have more models, they also have more keys.

While to some degree this is true, it is largely a matter of fashion (or "à la mode", if we wish to follow some of the recommendations in a recent thread concerning Arban, according to which we should be thinking in French) There are in fact a significant number of instruments reasonably called "euphoniums" (or perhaps 'barytons', or even "tenor horns" -- the terminology here is hardly rigid or precise). There are all these crazy Europeans -- frequently German-speaking, it must be admitted -- running around the Alps (and other mountain ranges). They are having a really good time playing Blasintrumenten of various sorts that LOOK like baritones or euphoniums, and you can even order an impressive range of these things (if you have the funding) from American distributors or eBay (or in some cases, Chinese distributors). Three valves, four valves, five valves ... Knock yourself out. Czech, German, whatever. And never mind that over time the borders of the European countries moved back and forth pretty much like a pendulum. Drop into Alsace (e.g., Strasbourg) and see how much German is spoken.

....Don't forget to mention Saxhorns....

When, the oval baritones came out on eBay several years ago, I was really tempted to get one. However, I just couldn't venture to spend $600 on it. I doubt I would get an amati or (much less) an alexander.

To me, country of origin doesn't really matter, it is a purely economical question. Do they have what I want for the price I want? If yes, I get it. If no I don't.

Ultimately, tubists have this debate because tubists are the most likely to be affected by the price range of their horns. Heck, a good used CC costs almost twice what I payed for my Yamaha 642 (it was a store demo). For that price, I can almost pay my rent for the year.

[Rick Denney]

The question is whether origin would make a difference in your decision. Everything you're saying seems to imply that it would, why not just say so and be done with it?

It does not make a difference in my decision to buy. It makes a difference in what I'm willing to pay. Treating a buy decision like it's binary is simplistic. At worst, it's used to bolster someone's idea that people are hopeless xenophobes, or that they are disloyal, or some other ridiculous conclusion. I'm quite sure this is not in Dave's mind or intentions, but that isn't the point.

Again, in 1984 I was (as I still am) a committed anti-communist. Yet I bought a tuba made in communist Czechoslovakia which was then fully part of the Soviet empire. Would I have paid a Miraphone price for it? No. At the same price, I would not have bought a Czech tuba versus a German tuba. But the reason is that the German tuba would have been better made, prettier, more durable, and it would give me something fancier to show off to my section-mates. (I will not insist that my Miraphone actually played that much better than that Cerveny, though it was surely different.)The fact is that at the time, that's the best tuba I could afford, at about one-third of what a new Miraphone would have cost. It is simply not possible to remove price from the equation and have any equation left. And if you consider the price, the question becomes unnecessary because the prices that tubas command already answers the question of where preferences lie.

Rick "who can't answer a question based on a fallacious premise" Denney