Prelude to Act 3 of Lohengrin

[THE TUBA]

This made me a little curious, so I checked my excerpts, and found some interesting results.
For The Ride of the Valkyries (sp), Wagner specifies contrabass tuba, and for Die Meistersinger, my part just says tuba. For the Lohengrin prelude, I would use a bass for B, then use a contrabass for D to the end.

Here are some other excerpts that are probably not played by the indicated instrument.
1812 Overture - BaB Tuba (I assume it means Bb tuba)
The Planets- Bass Tuba
Tchaik. 4- BaB Tuba
Ein Heldenleben- Bass Tuba
...

Most of my Tchaik excerpts are just marked tuba, so when he says Bb, does he mean it? How many people really play the songs indicated Bb tuba with a Bb tuba (besides the few who routinely use their's in orchestra settings)? Who actually plays the huge low register stuff in the Planets, A Hero's Life, and the Fountins of Rome with an bass tuba when they have a contrabass tuba? Does it really matter? The conductor and the audience will naturally want to hear what sounds best, and what best fits in with the rest of the orchestra; or, if the part calls for it, sticks out.

[Mark]

1812 Overture - BaB Tuba (I assume it means Bb tuba)

Actually, that's Baß. The last character, ß, is a German esset. It translates into English as ss. So, Baß Tuba translates to Bass Tuba.

[THE TUBA]

1812 Overture - BaB Tuba (I assume it means Bb tuba)

Actually, that's Baß. The last character, ß, is a German esset. It translates into English as ss. So, Baß Tuba translates to Bass Tuba.

Oh. Knew ß was a different letter that B, but I didn't feel like looking for the correct key-punch for that symbol, I just assumed everyone would figure it out.

So, you're supposed to use a Bass Tuba on 1812. Because most of Tchaikovski's tuba parts that I have say tuba, when he indicates Baß, it inclines me to believe that he means B.A.T. This would hold true with the Planets, a Hero's Life, the Fountains of Rome, etc.

[Mark]

point being can we possibly know how you sound, or your ensemble??? of course not! And if you already ARE taking lessons, shame on you for dragging the well-meaning tubenet into second-guessing the professional who is trying to help you become a better musician!

Are you directing this at me? Because if you are, you should go and take some lessons from a pro on how not to post offensive messages on TubeNet.

[Mark]

what is TRULY offensive is when you chose to retort like some thin-skinned putz---simjply because you are too damn defensive to see the intent of clear, direct advice - go take a lesson from someone like Chris Olka or Ja'tik Clark, and ask THEM after they've HEARD you play (assuming you CAN that is) ... they sure as hell will be able to better judge how you sound and provide advice about your equipment selection than ANYone here!

If your reading comprehension was better than third grade, you would have noticed in my first post that I was not asking advice on equipment selection. I was just curious what others were doing with this piece and why.

All of the responses, except yours, were polite and made for an interesting discussion.

[windshieldbug]

[MikeMason]

why do we have to make a thought provoking, interesting thread into a pissing match? there is much to be learned from others' opinions whether you agree with them or not.Either way they either confirm your own opinion or help reshape it to something better.

[TexTuba]

Well here's my question and I hope that it makes some sense. When I see all of these parts that have bass/contrabass tuba, is it really good to go by what they say? I mean, Wagner and Tchaikovsky didn't have the option of MW 2165's or Mira 184's. They had what they had and by no means is it as good as we have now. The same could be said for other instruments in the orchestra. And I'll bring it up again as an example. I heard that Berlioz originally wrote Symphonie Fantastique for ophecleides in Bb and C. But you don't see that piece being performed by those instruments do you? I have come to find after reading this thread that it doesn't really matter what you use, as long as it sounds good and fits the group. Take care.

Ralph

[UDELBR]

Wagner and Tchaikovsky didn't have the option of MW 2165's or Mira 184's. They had what they had and by no means is it as good as we have now.

Huh? While those particular models may not have existed then, they most certainly had (Big ***-) Kaiser tubas. And just how is it that you know that they were "by no means is it as good as we have now"?

Berlioz originally wrote Symphonie Fantastique for ophecleides in Bb and C. But you don't see that piece being performed by those instruments do you?

It occasionally gets played that way; but what's more important is that although Berlioz was thoroughly aware of the bass- and contrabass tubas and their potential, he almost exclusively wrote for either ophicleides, serpents, or a combination thereof 'til his death in 1869. Also not trivial: he ranted long and loud about musicians who saw fit to "improve" his music with their own changes. Does this mean we all oughta take up the ophicleide? No. A better approach is to use that expensive college education, and whatever common sense God gave you, and leave the York copy at home during Berlioz week.

[TexTuba]

Huh? While those particular models may not have existed then, they most certainly had (Big ***-) Kaiser tubas. And just how is it that you know that they were "by no means is it as good as we have now"?

Okay. Those horns I mentioned were just examples of the variety of horns you could possibly use. As in one of that largest and one of the smallest. And I say as good as we have now because of how far tubas have come. For example the craftsmanship, the many different horns you could can choose from, etc. I don't think back then they had places like WWBW or Custom Music.

It occasionally gets played that way; but what's more important is that although Berlioz was thoroughly aware of the bass- and contrabass tubas and their potential, he almost exclusively wrote for either ophicleides, serpents, or a combination thereof 'til his death in 1869. Also not trivial: he ranted long and loud about musicians who saw fit to "improve" his music with their own changes. Does this mean we all oughta take up the ophicleide? No. A better approach is to use that expensive college education, and whatever common sense God gave you, and leave the York copy at home during Berlioz week.

I kinda figured that you wouldn't use a BIG tuba. Again, this falls under what I was saying earlier of whatever sounds good and is good with the ensemble.

Ralph

[UDELBR]

I say as good as we have now because of how far tubas have come. For example the craftsmanship, the many different horns you could can choose from, etc.

If you haven't played an instrument from that era, then that's idle speculation. And as for craftsmanship, ALL tubas were hand-made back in the day! (If anything, I think craftsmanship and work ethic have taken an enormous nose dive this last century.)

Again, "whatever sounds good" won't cut it when the trumpets and trombones have gone to the trouble to use authentic German instruments identical to what was used 150 years ago.

[TexTuba]

If you haven't played an instrument from that era, then that's idle speculation. And as for craftsmanship, ALL tubas were hand-made back in the day! (If anything, I think craftsmanship and work ethic have taken an enormous nose dive this last century.)

That may be so as far as speculation/opinion, but your take on craftsmanship is no more than an opinion as well.

Again, "whatever sounds good" won't cut it when the trumpets and trombones have gone to the trouble to use authentic German instruments identical to what was used 150 years ago.

With the exception of the new Kruspe/Thein tbones that Friedman helped produce, I haven't heard much of them using "authentic" German instruments. But I could be WAY off base on that one. What horns would you recommend for that "authentic" sound when it comes to tuba? This is by no means sarcasm, just a sincere question.

Ralph

[windshieldbug]

the "who can make the violas go deaf first" contest

I thought they were already deaf; Why else does one play viola?

[TexTuba]

the "who can make the violas go deaf first" contest

I thought they were already deaf; Why else does one play viola?

DUH! To make OTHERS suffer..

Ralph

[Mark]

When I see all of these parts that have bass/contrabass tuba, is it really good to go by what they say? I mean, Wagner and Tchaikovsky didn't have the option of MW 2165's or Mira 184's.

Also, you have to consider whether the the music has been "edited". Some one besides the composer may have decided to change tuba to bass tuba, etc.

[UDELBR]

What horns would you recommend for that "authentic" sound when it comes to tuba?

Er, one that is reasonably in line with the intent of the composer (...which is the entire point of my post...<sigh>)

[windshieldbug]

Er, one that is reasonably in line with the intent of the ...

Conductor, more like...

[TexTuba]

Hey Ralph,
I see your point - the horn should sound appropriate. Appropriate to the intent of the composer is more like it. Ever been to a Brahms or Bruckner concert where the trumpets use rotaries, tbones use different horns, and the tuba is an F? That's what you call making it German.
Uncle Beer is right on. If you knew a little about him, I think you would trust him on this.
Doc

I believe I understand now. Thank you, sir.

Ralph

[windshieldbug]

If you sat in a modern orchestra with a modern string section and a large harp, I think you would lose a lot. I personally like an F and an Eb. A bit of a mix of timbre that I think works well.

I've played Fantastique in a modern orchestra using ophecleides, anyway. The part lies very well for them, and the notes (even the octaves) are effortless. Because of the writing, even with the full orchestra, they come out really well. You are correct that there was no tuba then, but there was the serpent, which he could have used had the mood so struck him. The reason he specifies two different key ophecleides is to ensure that the bad notes of each are covered by the other (being keyed instruments, there is no slide pulling), not for the timbre clash. The Dies Irae section does sound awesome on ophecleides, but I'm of the opinion that he was using the best orchestral instruments he could. Otherwise, he could just as easily specified serpents, which would have carried with them holy/unholy baggage. I think in this case the opheleide was the Biggest Available Tuba-sounding instrument.

_______________
Michael Keller
ex-The Delaware Symphony