new 4 valve sousaphones for HS band

[tubadaddy92]

the ones we recieved have terrible tuning problems on most notes. you have to pull all the slides out close to all the way to get it somewhat in tune. personally im sticking to our conn 20k's and yamaha's.

[DaTubaKid]

Thanks for the clarification tubadaddy. You're first post was vague (at least to me). You could have been refering to anything, bad intonation, bad sound, bad in bed. All of those can be implied by playing badly

[KevinMadden]

I'd like to see those c. 145 lb. vandals negotiate this thing through one entire summer band camp...much less one sit-down rehearsal:


bloke "speaking of 'American' and '4-valve' sousaphones..."

all these high schools should just suck it up and get a REAL outdoor instrument, I'd like the see the above mentioned 145 lb vandals play a real contra

[iiipopes]

I would love to play contras. some high schools already do(carmel, avon, harlingen south)

Why? And feel like you're Atlas balancing the Earth all day? Just to have spit run back into your mouth from the leadpipe? Just to not only have a sore shoulder as you do occasionally from a souzy, but sore arms, elbows, etc. as well? To double your chiropractor bill because all the weight is unbalanced on one shoulder instead of at least coming around both sides of your body? To have a smaller bore which may impede the resonance of the instrument? To have a smaller bell to impede projection?

And those are the good points to contras.

[KevinMadden]

.689" bore
21" Bell
26 Lbs.

not that much smaller than the 4 valve Dynasty Souzy ...

.730 " bore
26" bell
30 Lbs.

and its 100% directional!!!

[Dan Schultz]

.689" bore
21" Bell
26 Lbs.

not that much smaller than the 4 valve Dynasty Souzy ...

.730 " bore
26" bell
30 Lbs.

and its 100% directional!!!

And a sousa is not!??

[KevinMadden]

And a sousa is not!??

okay, edit, they both are...

[Dan Schultz]

And a sousa is not!??

okay, edit, they both are...

Sorry... didn't mean to be augumentive, but being an old guy who played in high school and military bands in the 60's... I never quite got used to the idea of using contra bugles. Now, at 60 years of age, I wouldn't ever consider putting one of those beasts on my shoulder. They are fun to fix when they collide on the field, though.

Dan 'who still has a couple of souzys' Schultz

[iiipopes]

Oh, yes -- another good point I forgot about contras: job security for brass repairmen.

[sinfonian]

KevinMadden wrote:


.689" bore
21" Bell
26 Lbs.

not that much smaller than the 4 valve Dynasty Souzy ...

.730 " bore
26" bell
30 Lbs.

and its 100% directional!!!

Since this is for a G contra wouldn't the extra tubing on the Contra for a BBb make it a similar weight to the Sousaphone?

[KevinMadden]

KevinMadden wrote:


.689" bore
21" Bell
26 Lbs.

not that much smaller than the 4 valve Dynasty Souzy ...

.730 " bore
26" bell
30 Lbs.

and its 100% directional!!!

Since this is for a G contra wouldn't the extra tubing on the Contra for a BBb make it a similar weight to the Sousaphone?

no I believe the G's are bigger, Contra and Bari bugles go down to G, call them GG if you will

[Bandmaster]

KevinMadden wrote:


.689" bore
21" Bell
26 Lbs.

not that much smaller than the 4 valve Dynasty Souzy ...

.730 " bore
26" bell
30 Lbs.

and its 100% directional!!!

Since this is for a G contra wouldn't the extra tubing on the Contra for a BBb make it a similar weight to the Sousaphone?

no I believe the G's are bigger, Contra and Bari bugles go down to G, call them GG if you will

Yes, the GG bugle is pitched a step and a half lower than a BBb tuba, so it should have tubing that is corespondingly longer. According to Kanstul's website the big GG Contrabass Bugle weights 2 lbs more than the big BBb Marching Tuba. Each has 3 valves with .689 bore and a 21" detachable bell. The GG weights 26 lbs and the BBb weights 24 lbs.

[iiipopes]

That would make the contra GG bugle @ 21 feet, 9 inches long from mouthpiece to bell rim, give or take a few inches. Unless the valve block is really far upstream close to the mouthpiece, with a really short leadpipe, that makes a .687 bore awfully small for such a large instrument.

[Bandmaster]

.689" bore
21" Bell
26 Lbs.

not that much smaller than the 4 valve Dynasty Souzy ...

.730 " bore
26" bell
30 Lbs.

and its 100% directional!!!

I wonder if they'd make a 4 valve concert version of it! Or even 3 valves.

A concert GG tuba???? No they don't, but I have played their one and only prototype 4 valve GG Contra Grande. It's even heavier, but it sure sounded good.

[iiipopes]

And they'll sound that way for about two seasons.

Sorry, I don't mean to be a grouch, but souzys just have hard lives; it's the nature of the beast.

And I don't know why people insist on carrying around the extra weight of a 4th valve. On a pre-Macmillian Conn 14 or 20, or pre-cyborg King 1250, you can make the top loop of the 1st valve slide movable, so you have perfect intonation down to low E nat, and if you need more, all three have perfect false pedal Eb with good tone. And the rebuild and lacquer is about 1/2 the cost of a new one, and it will last longer again.

I see no need for the time, expense, weight, or bother about a 4th valve on a souzy.

I'm glad you have your new ones to enjoy for the time being.

[MartyNeilan]

bloke "but many perceive fiberglass sousaphones to be 'bad'...and nobody asked me"

What do you think of those Yamaha fiberblass/resin things? I remember when they first came out in the 80's they were highly thought of, but I have heard little about them since.

[Billy M.]

:: sigh :: I remember the days of my King 2350 sousaphone. Man, the sound on that horn was so sweet it just wasn't fair.

No matter how many different sousaphones I've heard, the King always has and seemingly always WILL have the sweetest sound of all.

[Lee Stofer]

It bothers me that so many subjective and sometimes downright ignorant things are said concerning sousaphones.

Sousaphones are tubas, and as such, a fine musical instrument when used and cared-for like a fine musical instrument. The Sousa Band sousaphones had 4 valves, but they only marched once or twice ever. Those instruments were designed to be played in a concert band. The valveset is by far the heaviest part of an instrument, so adding a 4th valve to an instrument to carry on your shoulder is more of a liability than an asset. The Brazilian-made instruments that sport a 4th valve, yet weigh less than many 3-valve sousaphones, have shed weight elsewhere, in the form of paper-thin tubing, flimsy braces, omitting the steel bell rim wire, paring-down the size of guard moldings or eliminating them, or a combination of all of the above. Does this sound like a good design decision for an instrument that will spend hours in use in a stadium, in the stands, and on a parade field, not to mention bus rides and use/abuse by teenagers?

Buescher, Conn, Distin, Holton, King, Martin, Olds, Reynolds, Selmer and York all made fine sousaphones, a number of which survive to this day and play well. But, none of these (except a Taiwanese-made King and an occasional 20K from Cleveland, OH, that is not like its predecessors) are available from manufacturers any more. Why? Because of the prevailing economic atmosphere where we want more and more but are wanting to always pay less for it. That is why we see cheapened-down copies of great American sousaphones of the past being built in developing countries with cheap labor and being sold here, so we can have what we are asking for at ever-cheaper prices.

Inflation is real, and manufacturers can keep their prices low for only so long until it is no longer economically feasible to build a sousaphone in the US. If you were to translate the price of a first-quality American sousaphone built in 1950 to its' cost in 2007 U.S. Dollars, it would most likely fall in the $10,000 - $12,000US range now. If there were school systems and individuals across the US willing to spend $10,000 per sousaphone today, I'm convinced that you could pick from pro-quality models from at least 4 different manufacturers in the US and several others from other countries.

When I was in high school, our program could not afford a full set of both sousaphones and concert tubas, so we used 'naked lady' Conn sousaphones on Wenger stands indoors and no one complained. They were beautiful instruments that were well-cared-for, and no one complained about using them. We played rather well in-tune without 4 valves - this IS possible. If one got damaged at all, it was the responsibility of the student and his parents to get it repaired, and the band directors and band parents made sure that the responsible party was held accountable. Reporting to a rehearsal or performance with a non-functioning instrument was reflected in our grades, and vandalism to a school instrument was a good way to get an F for the year, suspension from school, and criminal charges.

When no one is held accountable, music programs fail.

[TubaSteve]

It bothers me that so many subjective and sometimes downright ignorant things are said concerning sousaphones.

Sousaphones are tubas, and as such, a fine musical instrument when used and cared-for like a fine musical instrument. The Sousa Band sousaphones had 4 valves, but they only marched once or twice ever. Those instruments were designed to be played in a concert band. The valveset is by far the heaviest part of an instrument, so adding a 4th valve to an instrument to carry on your shoulder is more of a liability than an asset. The Brazilian-made instruments that sport a 4th valve, yet weigh less than many 3-valve sousaphones, have shed weight elsewhere, in the form of paper-thin tubing, flimsy braces, omitting the steel bell rim wire, paring-down the size of guard moldings or eliminating them, or a combination of all of the above. Does this sound like a good design decision for an instrument that will spend hours in use in a stadium, in the stands, and on a parade field, not to mention bus rides and use/abuse by teenagers?

Buescher, Conn, Distin, Holton, King, Martin, Olds, Reynolds, Selmer and York all made fine sousaphones, a number of which survive to this day and play well. But, none of these (except a Taiwanese-made King and an occasional 20K from Cleveland, OH, that is not like its predecessors) are available from manufacturers any more. Why? Because of the prevailing economic atmosphere where we want more and more but are wanting to always pay less for it. That is why we see cheapened-down copies of great American sousaphones of the past being built in developing countries with cheap labor and being sold here, so we can have what we are asking for at ever-cheaper prices.

Inflation is real, and manufacturers can keep their prices low for only so long until it is no longer economically feasible to build a sousaphone in the US. If you were to translate the price of a first-quality American sousaphone built in 1950 to its' cost in 2007 U.S. Dollars, it would most likely fall in the $10,000 - $12,000US range now. If there were school systems and individuals across the US willing to spend $10,000 per sousaphone today, I'm convinced that you could pick from pro-quality models from at least 4 different manufacturers in the US and several others from other countries.

When I was in high school, our program could not afford a full set of both sousaphones and concert tubas, so we used 'naked lady' Conn sousaphones on Wenger stands indoors and no one complained. They were beautiful instruments that were well-cared-for, and no one complained about using them. We played rather well in-tune without 4 valves - this IS possible. If one got damaged at all, it was the responsibility of the student and his parents to get it repaired, and the band directors and band parents made sure that the responsible party was held accountable. Reporting to a rehearsal or performance with a non-functioning instrument was reflected in our grades, and vandalism to a school instrument was a good way to get an F for the year, suspension from school, and criminal charges.

When no one is held accountable, music programs fail.

Great post! For the first few years that I was in school bands, we played sousaphones in concert also. I was thrilled to have a horn to play. I still think that the sound from my two Reynolds sousaphones is wonderful. They respond great, have a rich mellow sound and can really bark (not blat),when called upon. Solid very well built instruments.

Steve

[iiipopes]

What Lee said. Period.