TubeNet

I recently got this horn from an Ebay auction and I still need some help to determine the model number.
The horn is pretty small and I doubt that it will produce the sound I need for a large band. Therefore,
after I'm through playing with it I'll be looking for a buyer. If anyones interested please send a PM or email...

I have searched the TubeNet archives, looked at a 1934 Conn brochure (Thanks to Klaus!) and visited
the Conn Loyalist webpage as well as others... The real problem is that there's not a model number
anywhere on the horn. There is a #6 or #9 depending on how you look at the number on both the
bell and the bell collar. Other than that, there is the serial number and the valve numbers.

The 1934 Brochure says that the 80j is the same bass as the 36j but with a smaller bore. I also
understand that the second number 8Xj could be different because of the valve configuration...
Join Klaus's yahoo group to see the file...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... ochure.pdf

Near perfect condition for a 1924 horn
Satin Finish (polished out by seller for some reason)
Bell: 19 3/4" (Copper Plate on bell flare - Shows thru on the backside too, see pictures)
Overall Height: 41"
Approx Bore: .735
Bell Collar ID: 5 3/8"

Here are some pictures of the horn, let's see what everyone decides!
If you think the pictures should be smaller just let me know... Thanks, Tim

Boy, that body sure looks like a King, not a Conn! What's the serial number--you can black out the last digit if you want.

Don't know what the deal is with the copper plating, but could it be the strike coat for now-disappeared gold?

Well, according to the Conn Loyalist Conn Bass recognition guide it can only be either a 26J, 36J or a 82J since it has 4 front action valves and is a bell front BBb. It looks like the picture of a 36J but is apparently too small. The picture of the 80/81J (3 valve) shows the tuning slide in the lead pipe and a different wrap on the bows. Is the 82J the same as the 80J but with a 4th valve? That's what the description says, so it is probably not an 82J. But there is no image available for a 26J, so could this horn be a 26J? Inquiring minds want to know.....????? Any body have a Conn catalog from the mid 1920's?

PS - the eBay ad said the serial number is 2070XX, which does make it 1924 vintage.

Good Morning!
Does anyone out there have a mid-20's brochure???

Boy, that body sure looks like a King, not a Conn!

What model King are you referring to???

Don't know what the deal is with the copper plating, but could it be the strike coat for now-disappeared gold?

The 1934 brochure lists satin silver & gold bell as an option but who knows what was available in 1924...

Dunno. The braces are certainly Conn, not King, but the 0.687 bore on a Conn BBb recording bass is strange.

Do you have this thing in your possession yet so you can double-check the description?

Chuck(G) wrote:Dunno. The braces are certainly Conn, not King, but the 0.687 bore on a Conn BBb recording bass is strange.

The '34 catalog states, "The 80J is the same bass [as the 32J] in medium bore. 3 valves, 23-inch bell, key of BBb."

Isn't the 3J/5J bore more like .656"? This instrument looks too fat to be one of those.

The logo on this instrument looks pre-art-deco to me. All the logos in the '34 catalog show the art deco style.

Rick "who only has a '34 catalog" Denney

I sent an email to Christine from the Conn Loyalist webpage and here's her reply:

Hi Tim,

I read the discussion on Tubenet.... and excellent pictures. I would
like to use one of those if/when we find out exactly what it is.

I HAVE a 1924 catalog. The only thing in that catalog that matches "4
valves front action, forward facing bell" is the 82J. The 80J is a 3
valve front action. Specs listed for the 82J are "27 Lbs weight, 42 1/2"
length, 19" width, 20" bell diameter.

So my guess would be an 82J. However, it doesn't exactly match the
drawing in the catalog. But the catalog drawing is of an 80J. Either
way, the drawing has the leadpipe looping down before going into the
first valve, while on your instrument it goes straight into the first
valve. But, this might be a difference between the 3 and 4 valve
version. I don't know.

Have you checked under the mouthpiece receiver for a model number. Of
course, the leadpipe may have been replaced at some point. Oh, and the
numbers on the bell - instrument join (6 or 9), you see that quite often
on models that have two pieces. Trombones are the same way. I believe
these numbers are just to keep parts together, and don't mean anything
else.

Regards, Christine

I agree that it's probably an 82j even though we don't have an actual picture as reference...

Was Conn this disorganized with all it's instruments??? Trumpet, bones, etc...

Do you have this thing in your possession yet so you can double-check the description?

Yes, It arrived yesterday. I took measurements of the horn before completing the post.

I think there are at least a couple TubeNet users that have the 8Xj series tubas so hopefully they will contruibute their thoughts before too long...

trseaman wrote:
Was Conn this disorganized with all it's instruments??? Trumpet, bones, etc...

Yes!
This is from forum.trombone.org

Steve Dillon wrote:
Conn also had the “Model Shopâ€

Conn didn't start stamping the model on everything until sometime in the 20's, and they took their time with some types of horns. I have a 1924 Conn helicon that is obviously a 2K, but does not have ANY mark to that effect ANYWHERE. I also have examples of custom Conn work which was never marked.

For Conn instruments built "unmarked", I just refer to them as a "pre"-model, if anything. Does it matter so much? Take pro horns today. Most have been "modified" in one form or another after they left the factory. What would a historian make of bloke's helicon if they happen across it in 200 years? Does it matter?

It has been speculated that Conn OEM'd parts from Buescher and visa-versa. Perhaps some of the ambiguity on this horn are a result of some blending of parts from two of the great brass insturment manufacturing houses?

My 1921 Conn 32K Helicon has a bell with the typical Conn engraving, but with a tiny note "exchanged for new Buescher - Elkhart, IND 8721" stamped into it.

dmmorris wrote:My 1921 Conn 32K Helicon has a bell with the typical Conn engraving, but with a tiny note "exchanged for new Buescher - Elkhart, IND 8721" stamped into it.

That would be a "traded-in" horn, just like cars, a practice the instrument manufacturers used for a while... anything to sell a new horn...

IowegianStar wrote:How does it play?

It plays real nice but I haven't played that many horns and certainly nothing this small. A proper sized mouthpiece might make it sound better too! I'm going to get a picture of it next to my King 2341 so everyone can see the size difference. It won't be until later tonight though...

windshieldbug wrote:What would a historian make of bloke's helicon if they happen across it in 200 years? Does it matter?

First, they'll shake their head about blokes helicon! You're right, it doesn't matter and I understand your point but I'm just curious about the background of this instrument. I've never had a Conn and don't know much about the company. So I'm trying to find out as much as I can...

Conn to me is the most historically interesting instrument company. They're an old company, they made a huge number of instruments, they made a huge variety of instruments, at one time they were the largest instrument company in the world, everything from the classic period is basically a professional quality instrument, and all of their records were destroyed in the early 70s.
If you watch ebay for long enough, you will see every documented model of Conn instrument, plus a constant stream of new ones (like yours) that have never been seen! It's like a decade long tour of an instrument museum.

Maybe Cerveny approaches Conn on the level of variety and history. I'd like to see a page devoted to historical instruments that they made. Cerveny Loyalist?
I'd also like to see a Conn Loyalist section with photos of non-model numbered instruments, pre 1919.

jacobg wrote:I'd also like to see a Conn Loyalist section with photos of non-model numbered instruments, pre 1919.

Have you told Christine?

trseaman wrote:The horn is pretty small and I doubt that it will produce the sound I need for a large band. Therefore,
after I'm through playing with it I'll be looking for a buyer. If anyones interested please send a PM or email...

The wrap of the tubing indicates to me that you have an 8X-J. I have many pictures and if I could access the pictures, I bet I would find a "mate" to yours (unfortunately my computer and all it's holdings are at the computer hospital, victim of a nasty spyware virus).

The only thing that throws me is your statement quoted above. 8x-J's weren't small. The bore size should be around .735" and the bell diameter should be 20" or better. If so.... 8X-J.

Beautiful instrument.

Didn't some guy suggest that that tube was pretty small in the ebay forum?

viewtopic.php?t=12202

cjk wrote:Didn't some guy suggest that that tube was pretty small in the ebay forum?

viewtopic.php?t=12202

And the more I look at the thing, the more I think it's probably a Buescher with a Conn bell.

Alex C wrote:The only thing that throws me is your statement quoted above. 8x-J's weren't small. The bore size should be around .735" and the bell diameter should be 20" or better.

I'm very sorry, you are correct about the bore size. I went with what the Ebay seller told me... I should have known better! I'll correct the first posting too.


I'd love to see pics of your horn too! Does it have the same bell? What year was your horn built?

Also, here's a pic of the Conn next to my King...

I love the copper plating inside the bell! As shiny as it is, and after reading the prior posts, I'm wondering if it is a special order, and not just a gold plate that didn't get the final gold. Very, very striking, and probably unique. I wonder if it also darkened the tone somewhat? If it weren't such an early example, I would wonder if someone got it into the coprion tank! I must consider that if I ever get a recording bell tuba. Beautiful!