ARBAN spoke French!

[Amilcare]

I, for one, am very disappointed with Wes Jacobs' re-issue of the METHODE.

While it's nice to have a bass clef edition with the right notes, the real book is still to be found. The Carl Fischer edition was a pirated edition. In fact, its basis was an edition put out after Arban's death.

Arban left many clues. The most important was his admission that he received his tonguing advice from flute players, who also spoke French;-)

A French "T" is formed like our English "soft th." It is a forward motion, not the backward motion of ours. Also, "K" was not part of the normal French alphabet in the 19th century. Its use as a phoneme by flute teachers was an attempt to suggest a sound that exists in no language. It's an "anchor tongue" that certain sax and clarinet players have long supported.

The other interesting part is that historical tutors always presented articulations as pairs. Functionally, this means the "gray area" we often think of separating single and multiple tonguing is a myth. In fact, historical tutors present us with as many as 4-5 pairs of syllables.

Generations of English-speaking players have been getting it wrong. It's time we got it right;-)

[Curmudgeon]

Or, as William Bell never said:

"thuh-thuh-kuh-thuth, vieille chose..."

[PMeuph]

In fact, historical tutors ....

I haven't looked at the Wes Jacobs with enough detail to give it the assessment you do. Maybe you could write a review for the ITEA journal.
____

What I find interesting about Arban is that it doesn't only serve has a historical tutor. Even if the text is misunderstood, there is enough quality exercises in it to develop technique. If one gets through the Arban and masters all the exercises at a wide range of tempos and dynamics, then one is surely a very apt player.

One of the best points I learned in a Masterclass with the late John Griffiths is that the TUBA IS NOT A TRUMPET!...... Using the same sound conception, same articulating model, the same airstream, etc as a trumpet player will not yield great results on the tuba... John Griffiths advocated for the use of the syllables da-ga, instead of the ta-ka or(worst) tee-kee that is sometimes taught.

Since Arban originally originally conceived his work for cornet, we have to accept that any adaptation will be a compromise. Also, I think we can take into account the fact that lots has changed in the past 150 years, in terms of instrument size, bore, mouthpiece shape, depth, etc... I think these have to be accounted for in our evaluation of "historical" documents...

[Amilcare]

A brass instrument is a brass instrument.

There never was a "K."

[Doc]

One of the best points I learned in a Masterclass with the late John Griffiths is that the TUBA IS NOT A TRUMPET!...... Using the same sound conception, same articulating model, the same airstream, etc as a trumpet player will not yield great results on the tuba... John Griffiths advocated for the use of the syllables da-ga, instead of the ta-ka or(worst) tee-kee that is sometimes taught.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has that realization.

Since Arban originally originally conceived his work for cornet, we have to accept that any adaptation will be a compromise.

The physical differences in cornet and tuba should make this a no-brainer, not to mention the differences in physical requirements when playing cornet vs. tuba. Basic principles and concepts may not differ, although the applications should applied appropriately. I wouldn't drive an Indy car in mud races, and I wouldn't drive a Jeep on the bricks in Indianapolis, even though both of those vehicles belong to the race car family.

Also, I think we can take into account the fact that lots has changed in the past 150 years, in terms of instrument size, bore, mouthpiece shape, depth, etc... I think these have to be accounted for in our evaluation of "historical" documents...

I think we can take into account the fact that lots has changed in the past 15 years in terms of waist size, body shape, depth, etc... I think these have to be accounted for in our evaluation of "historical" wardrobe... What I once wore does not work with today's application. So... I have to do what works best. I'm still dressed, and the outward appearance of the clothing may not differ much from the historical model, although I have adapted the correct size to make it work. Much like how the mouthpiece doesn't stay squarely in the center of my embouchure all the time. That's not a bad habit. That is simply what works best with the shape/angle of my mouth, teeth, etc.

I agree that the tuba is not a cornet, although the tuba can be played as fluently and artistically as a cornet. It may not have the same curb appeal as cornet (unless your audience is tuba players or open-minded lovers of music), but that doesn't diminish the tuba's (or the player's) capabilities. Tuba players don't enjoy a vast, rich history of "legendary" or "benchmark" literature like the Arban written just for them. We have our standard fare, for sure, and our instrument-specific library is growing. Our literature still includes "other-instrument" classics like Arban, Bordogni, etc., and that is fine by me. I will take the good from them that I can and apply it wisely to my instrument and my playing. Ultimately, what comes out of the bell is the defining factor, and that is more about hard work, critical listening, and tenacity more than anything else.

[Amilcare]

It's hard to do this on an iDevice.

As to Bell, I cannot say, though I have known students of his, none has seemed to promote this that I know of.

The historical fact is that too much good pedagogy has been lost, and bad technique has supplanted good practices, especially in public education.

There is no "K" in French. It was an early attempt to supplant a sound that was made when humming or whooshing with the anchor tongue. The flute players who started all this are still under-studied in the flute world. The Tarr/Dickey book below stops just short of 1800 when the flute teachers introduced the "K."

Get your local library to buy TARR/DICKEY Articulation in Early Wind Music (ISBN 13-978-905786-02-6)

Or better yet, buy your own as this is the sort of thing we brass players need to support by our bucks. It's under $120.

[chronolith]

I am curious. Has anyone done any kind of rudimentary analysis of the playing (and especially the articulation) styles of various players who speak different languages? Perhaps someone has. If so, was it meaningful in any way? I have my theory but I am no expert in these things.

As Doc says, it boils down to what is coming out of the bell.

[talleyrand]

I am curious. Has anyone done any kind of rudimentary analysis of the playing (and especially the articulation) styles of various players who speak different languages? Perhaps someone has. If so, was it meaningful in any way? I have my theory but I am no expert in these things.

As Doc says, it boils down to what is coming out of the bell.

Exactly. It is actually a very interesting point from a player's perspective. I do wonder how much difference it makes out in the seats.

[Alex Kidston]

Here's something - I've a second-hand quote from a student of UK trumpet teacher Howard Snell, who used to extol the virtues of the Yorkshire accent specifically in terms of brass playing, I think mostly dealing with colour of sound with particular reference to the brass band tradition...I think a cross-cultural study of sound concept would be a fascinating addition to our awareness of pedagogy and schools of playing / teaching...American, French, German, English (with sub-groups Scottish, Welsh), Russian, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Swiss, Danish, Israeli, Portugese, Irish...sounds like an economic summit

Alex

[PMeuph]

There is no "K" in French.

Professeur, pouvez-vous prononcer le mot attaque?

[Curmudgeon]

As to Bell, I cannot say, though I have known students of his, none has seemed to promote this that I know of.

That thar is wut ya call a "flyby..."

[hup_d_dup]

There is no "K" in French.

Professeur, pouvez-vous prononcer le mot attaque?

Ha, un jeu de mot!