Who needs an education?

[Chuck(G)]

I just finished reading the current (April 17) issue of Time about the 30% high school dropout rate we're currently enjoying. There's also a Gates foundation report on this that's pretty eye-opening:

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Educatio ... idemic.htm
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 46,00.html

One thing that I've noticed is that many high schools have dropped their technical/vocationional programs, as if everyone is going to become a lawyer or computer programmer.

This is a sore spot for my wife and me--a few years ago, we funded a small program at a local high school that attempted to take kids who just couldn't seem to handle traditional math courses and put them in a special class where they'd learn math by carpentry. It seemed to be reaching some (and we got a couple of very neat birdhouses as gifts from each class). Then the high school axed the program by eliminating a faculty position.

Do you think that we might be better off by revisiting vocational (non-college track) training in our high schools? How about more crafts apprenticeship programs?

<img src="http://img.timeinc.net/time/images/cove ... 17_107.jpg" align=center>

[windshieldbug]

One thing that I've noticed is that many high schools have dropped their technical/vocationional programs, as if everyone is going to become a lawyer or computer programmer

... and lawyers, we've got too many of, and all the programming jobs have moved offshore...

[LoyalTubist]

... and lawyers, we've got too many of, and all the programming jobs have moved offshore...

I was having trouble with my cell phone today, so I called the company to fix it. The help desk specialist had a very decidedly Indian accent. The first thing he told me, "Before I start, I should let you know (the company) is not outsourcing. I am in Miami, Florida. I just happen to be from India. So, what seems to be the problem?"

[Matt G]

I saw a blurb on this on the Today show, and I am somewhat suspect of the 30% number, but regardless, the system is failing.

If people wonder why our economy has become so "service" based, it is simply because that is what the majority of people are able to do. Especially minimal skill services, like high volume retail and fast-food style establishments, because those are the only jobs that the average "dunce" that graduates high school can do and non-grads.

I wish there were programs like Chuck had mentioned.

You can teach the nearly all aspects of mathematics, including calculus, in either wood-shop, metal-shop, or automotive/small engine programs.

Additionally, good English skills can be taught in business courses.

I understand that our educational system is to be "critical thinking" oriented, but many students just don't want this. However, many of them would love to get busy tearing down and engine and rebuilding it. Maybe they would love to learn how to set up and run a profitable small business?

Some of these courses can even earn their keep by selling projects and offering services. Just like the many of the top bands I've seen make a good bit of revenue playing gigs, and good football teams (I begrudgingly admit this) earn revenue from ticket sales.

There was also a mention that many of these high schools now only have a diploma track or a college prep track now. What happened to the vocational track? Why do tracks even exist? Why are public dollars spent on preparing half of these dummies to drop out of college?

Very frustrating.

[Matt G]

As American 3D skills become more rare, the PRICE of these skills will climb disproportionally to other wages.

That is exactly why the folks that seem to have the most amount of disposable income amongst "middle-class" folks are electricians, plumbers, etc.

I've told my wife that once I get close to "retirement age" I want to take up welding as a hobby. I figure I could work part-time at it (30 years from now) and make a full-time wage.

[windshieldbug]

There was also a mention that many of these high schools now only have a diploma track or a college prep track now. What happened to the vocational track? Why do tracks even exist? Why are public dollars spent on preparing half of these dummies to drop out of college?

Maybe because one way to bump up your "No Child Left Behind" percentages is to leave them at the bus stop, and not taking the tests at all?

[TubaRay]

I honestly don't see how Chuck(G) can start these discussions on "social" problems without someone (eventually) starting to discuss their root causes...
...which will lead directly into off-limits material.
bloke "done"

This is quite true.

[Chuck(G)]

I honestly don't see how Chuck(G) can start these discussions on "social" problems without someone (eventually) starting to discuss their root causes...

...which will lead directly into off-limits material.

bloke "done"

Only if you want it to. I'm not concerned with blame, only renedies. We have an alarming social trend that will affect us all. What can we do about it? I don't care who's responsible for causing it--that's not productive.

Or would you rather discuss worthwhile topcs like:

viewtopic.php?t=14127
viewtopic.php?t=14106
viewtopic.php?t=14096

[windshieldbug]

... well, I've gotten several silver CC students stuck in my tuba, and no clear idea how to expunge them...

[Chuck(G)]

... well, I've gotten several silver CC students stuck in my tuba, and no clear idea how to expunge them...

Rotary or piston valves?

Here's one. How fast can you belch the last movement of the Vaughan Williams Concerto for bass tuba?.

[MartyNeilan]

- those who are ALL *"above average" (just like Lake Wobegon)

Yep...
EVERY student with no exception is highly talented and gifted in all areas. If they do poorly in our classes it is because we are bad teachers.

Kinda reminds me of one of my worst (both behavior and playing) music students who came up to me and told me he believed he was a direct descendent of the Biblical David because of "all his musical talent" despite the fact that he admitted there wasn't a drop of Hebrew blood in his lineage.

[windshieldbug]

Kinda reminds me of one of my worst (both behavior and playing) music students who came up to me and told me he believed he was a direct descendent of the Biblical David because of "all his musical talent" despite the fact that he admitted there wasn't a drop of Hebrew blood in his lineage.

Must have been descended from David's "liar", then

(Chuck: With coda or without?)

[RyanSchultz]

It might help us find some solutions by attempting to isolate some of the causes of this problem. While some could be governmental or political, many might not be.

Motivation, in my opinion, is a key to unlocking this puzzle. I've spent a lot of time talking to students about the direct correlation between school/training and future income. If a child is not motivated, s/he will probably falter.

Sense of entitlement is also probably an issue in many areas.

Lack of resources and mentors could be another issue (read "Savage Inequalities"). . .

This should concern everyone.

[Rick Denney]

I've told my wife that once I get close to "retirement age" I want to take up welding as a hobby. I figure I could work part-time at it (30 years from now) and make a full-time wage.

You speak for me. I've asked for a welder for my birthday, heh, heh.

Rick "who may not wait 30 years, however" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Allow me to make a non-political observation--which is where the original post was headed anyway.

When I attended high school, there were two identifiable cirriculum tracks: college-bound and non-college-bound. While the taint of snobbery was starting to manifest itself in that the "college bound" folks were looked on as "better", both tracks received the funding of the school district.

Coiuld someone who graduated on the "non college-bound" cirriculum attend a university? Sure--but he'd find himself (or herself) taking some extra prep courses. But then, cirricula varied widely between schools back then. The rich kids from Waukegan had exposure to some calculus in thier math classes, while trigonometry was as good as it got for us. In the long run, it didn't make much of a difference

Now, it seems that high schools assume that either you're college-bound or you're a dropout.

That has to stop.

It's time to bring back the crafts apprenticeship system and present it as a viable career choice in our schools. Not everyone (thankfully) is suited to sit behind a desk, pushing a mouse around.

[LoyalTubist]

Right, Chuck. We need more mechanics, barbers, artisans, and other skilled professionals, which need a short vocational course to get their jobs done.

[ken k]

very true,
and unfortunately most of the people going into the trades are those who were shipped off to vo-tech because they couldn't "hack it" in the regular school. Unfortunately they can't really "hack it" anywhere. So you end up with many people in the trades who don't give a sh*t about the quality of their work or people you wouldn't want to hire to do a job. We had the hardest finding a decent, polite well spoken carpenter when we were looking for someone to finish off our basement.

Same goes with auto mechanics. if you can find a good, decent, well-spoken articulate person to fix your car use him. they are few and far between.

My father-in-law owns an electromagnet/winding company. he is always lamenting the fact that he can't find anyone who wants to work, let alone wants to do good work and show up for work everyday. I can't imagine being a supervisor/manager type for a McDonalds or some other fast food type place that normally hires teens to work. Trying to get all the positions filled and schedules made must be an exercise in futlity.

We really need to promote the vocational/technical programs in schools in order to attract some intelligent people into the trades, not simply the "leftovers"

I try to tell my son about some of these trades rather than going to college. I don't know if it is sinking in or not.

ken k

[tubeast]

In Germany primary schools will sort out who is (after their fourth year in school) eligible for what school system.
(There are, basically, three of them: Hauptschule, Realschule, and Gymnasium, with, according to their definition, rising level of smartness required to succeed in them).
Hauptschule will end after the ninth grade, Realschule after tenth, and Gymnasium after 13th grade. A graduation from the latter gives you the possibility to attend university.

It IS possible to move on to the "higher" leveled school system if your graduation from the "lesser" school is good enough, so you´re not necessarily "screwed" if your qualities as a scholar develop AFTER primary school.

Now think of this: by the time a "Gymnasiast" gets out of school only to enter the next for some six years, the "Real"-people will have finished their 3-year apprenticeship in a craft.
By the time the "Gym"-people start earning money, the "Real"-people may have taken additional courses to become a certified "Master" of their craft. (The "Master" certificate allows you to setup your own business as a member of that craft´s "Innung", and train apprentices yourself).

In case you don´t enter a soaring career as a university graduate, (which by no means can be taken for granted)there´s no chance you will make up for those six years in full pay. Depending on your job, your beginning salary may be equal to the "Master´s"

Choosing a craft as your profession may not be a bad idea at all.

Some time in the late sixties (AFAIK) another type of school was developed: "Gesamtschule" (Combination of all three systems as described above). The intention was to make people more "equal" in their chances to go to university.

I personally don´t think this helped raise the reputation of non-university-careers.

[UDELBR]

In Germany primary schools will sort out who is (after their fourth year in school) eligible for what school system.
(There are, basically, three of them: Hauptschule, Realschule, and Gymnasium, with, according to their definition, rising level of smartness required to succeed in them).

This is also prevalent in other parts of Europe as well. There's a big hairy test all kids take at age 11 that will pretty much set the course for your life (rocket scientist / gas-pump attendant). While tubeast is correct in that it's not impossible to get passed up to a better school, it's unlikely, and costs years to catch up.

My point: not all kids have hit their stride by age 11. Others blossom at 13 or 15, and by then, they've already been shuffled off to "bathroom attendant school" as a result of this 'tracked' education system. Not ideal.

[corbasse]

This is also prevalent in other parts of Europe as well. There's a big hairy test all kids take at age 11 that will pretty much set the course for your life (rocket scientist / gas-pump attendant). While tubeast is correct in that it's not impossible to get passed up to a better school, it's unlikely, and costs years to catch up.

My point: not all kids have hit their stride by age 11. Others blossom at 13 or 15, and by then, they've already been shuffled off to "bathroom attendant school" as a result of this 'tracked' education system. Not ideal.

It's not all as grim as you say. The test is not 1 ultimate decisionpoint, but more of an aid in assessing somones strenghts and weaknesses and giving an advice which school system to attend. At least in Holland where I went to school the first few years of secondary school are mostly joint classes, so there's some time to correct mistakes, filter out those who messed up their test because of stress or some other reason and for late blossomers to develop.
Personally, my test results said I should attend the lowest degree. After the first year in secondary school my teachers basically asked me what the h@%& I was doing there and sent me to the highest which I finished without major problems.

Actually, the opposite of what you describe happens more often: most parents send their kids to the "highest possible"* tier of the system regardless of the outcome of the test thinking their kids are geniusses, as we all do. Then the kids trickle down to the level where they are able to cope with.

*Unfortunately, directions with loads of learn-by-heart stuff (Latin, Greek, etc.) are considered by too many to be "higher" than directions which focus on physical skils or insight, instead of just "different".