Why don't we use the French C tuba anymore??

[anonymous4]

I'm working on some pieces from the era of the French C, and I was wondering, what was so terrible about this instrument that it went extinct? Was the sound that bad compared to modern F or EEb tubas?? Was the intonation completely impossible with all those valves? I don't know, I've never seen or heard one, but....

In some ways it would make sense to have a French C as a small tuba:

1. Being in the key of C, it wouldn't require a CC tuba player to learn new fingerings. (I think)

2. Would seemingly take away some "fear" from playing higher register stuff (Bydlo, etc.) since these are idiomatic for the instrument.

I'm not suggesting people go trade in their F's or anything. I just want to know what it was that made people toss their French C's out to the curb. Also, does anybody know of any old recordings where someone is using this kind of tuba?

Thanks!
-t

[Rick Denney]

I'm not suggesting people go trade in their F's or anything. I just want to know what it was that made people toss their French C's out to the curb. Also, does anybody know of any old recordings where someone is using this kind of tuba?

I don't think "they" tossed the concept of a French C tuba. That concept is alive and well--it's called a euphonium. They just tossed the idea for using that instrument for what was written for bass and contrabass tubas. Those six valves were there to make the instrument work in the low register, and in that register, an F tuba works so much better. That's why the F became the conventional instrument in French orchestras. There just wasn't enough Bydlo or Berlioz to go around.

Many players will still use a tenor tuba or euphonium to play the Bydlo, and if you saw one of those next to a French C tuba, the only difference that would be really obvious would be the extra valves on the latter. Bell, bore, taper, and mouthpiece are as similar between these as between any given collection of F or C tubas.

Amati makes a C euphonium, but it's not exactly a large-bore instrument. But most pros who play C can work with Bb for those few occasions that really need a tenor tuba of some sort.

Rick "noting that Courtois was still showing a 5-valve Bb euphonium in their catalog during a recent look-see" Denney

[Chuck Jackson]

Good question. In this day of "bigger is better" I think we have lost sight of the intent of composers. With so many period performances being recorded on guess work, we have any number of significant recordings that were made when the French tuba in C, the Vienna tuba, and the EEb were the mainstays of a cultures musical identity. Furthermore, we can recreate the sounds the composer intended and keep history alive.

Imagine what the Bozza Sonatine would sound like on the instruments the Garde Republique quintet (for whom it was written) used. I bet we would get a work that was leaner, more incisive and sonically different than the typical grandiose versions we are so used to. I have told on this board before of a DVD of the French Radio and TV Orchestra and Andre Cluytens doing "Pictures" from 1960. The orchestra sound is nothing like we hear to today, the small bore brass instruments, the vibrato, the strings tuned a little high, it is a great rendition, made greater by the fact that we have an extant rendition of Bydlo on the instrument it was intended for. The gentleman playing the French tuba in C on this recording plays the best Bydlo I have ever heard. He also plays the rest of the work on the small horn, and coupled with the smaller bore brass, it is a gorgeous sound lacking in nothing.

We have a tendency not to respect the past. We have lost whole musical identities as various countries go to the bigger is better concept, all leading to a homoginization of orchestral sound that is quite dull. Luckily we have many recorded examples of orchestras from the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's that preserve this musical culture. Rememeber when you could tell Philly from NYPO from the BSO and Chicago? I can and I revel in the fact that we have recordings of "regional" sounds. Now everyone sounds like everyone else. Maybe some like it, but I don't want to hear everyone trying to sound the same, it's boring. Kinda like Appleby's, the food is safe, but give me a local joint with some history.

I would like to see someone record all the French pieces we play on the original instrument. I bet it would wag the dog a different way.

Sorry for the rant.

Chuck"waiting for the Vienna horn to go the way of the Dodo and dreading it "Jackson

[iiipopes]

It really is not too much of an over-simplification that the reason the French C tuba went out is the result of one person: Mel Culbertson. When he was hired for the Paris(?) symphony, he played what we now call the standard CC tuba, instead of the French C tuba his fellow countrymen played. They got miffed, went on strike, and the symphonies hired replacements who played "standard" orchestral CC tubas. Almost overnight, the French C tuba was gone. Like all situations, there is more to it than that, but those are the essentials.

[Chuck(G)]

Besides, I'll bet that with all 6 valves down, it probably felt like you were blowing through a brick...

[windshieldbug]

Modern orchestral tuba players use whatever the part requires; CC's, F's, and tenors of all sizes (SATs, MATs, and BATs). We just can't carry them in triple cases like the trumpet players do...

[DonnieMac]

There are players out there who can actually play such a beast in tune. The fingering setup for 6 valves is daunting and like nothing else in the brass world. Floyd Cooley picked up and played Bydlo on a French tuba I had. He sounded great but I never could get close to good intonation on the horn. You could probably buy that horn for about $1k, I imagine, from David Rouxl here in the SF Bay area.
Donnie Mac

[anonymous4]

They got miffed, went on strike, and the symphonies hired replacements who played "standard" orchestral CC tubas.

Was there no sort of musicians' union to prevent this? Seems like a bunch of people got thrown under a bus.

Also, I don't really understand the logic for this strike? I mean, if Al Baer suddenly decided to start using a BBb sousaphone in the New York Phil, all the orchestral tubists in the country might look at him funny, but I hardly think they would go on strike.

[windshieldbug]

Also, I don't really understand the logic for this strike? I mean, if Al Baer suddenly decided to start using a BBb sousaphone in the New York Phil, all the orchestral tubists in the country might look at him funny, but I hardly think they would go on strike.

Maybe not, but remember Broadway's threat to also break with "tradition" and used taped or synthesized music instead of live musicians for shows... the threatened strike, and Broadway's backing down

[sinfonian]

Because it is French.

We would have to call it the Freedom Tuba.

[MikeMason]

isn't there a track of Vaughn Williams' English Folk Songs done on a french tuba on "the English Tuba" Eugene Dowell?Also a very nice VW Concerto.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Because it is French.

We would have to call it the Freedom Tuba.

Can I get fries with that?

[sc_curtis]

It is interesting that you bring up rules. I don't anything about this part of our instrument's history, so I'll ask a question:

Were the "rules" regarding what type of tuba to play on in France written or unwritten. I would imagine that the players at that time just had an unwritten, and probably even unspoken, agreement as to which instrument to use. That would make their strike silly, I would think. If this were the case, they threw themselves under the bus for not keeping up with the times.

But then again, if there was some type of official document declaring what the best suitable instrument (French tuba in C)for their orchestras, then, yes, they got screwed.

Trends are always changing; sometimes revisited. It is the professional musicians' jobs to keep up with the current trends (mot recently, the BAT?). I feel no sympathy for the guys in the French tubas who were replaced by musicians playing the bigger horns. If they wanted to keep their jobs, they would have learned how to play them!

[sc_curtis]

Zing!

[windshieldbug]

Were the "rules" regarding what type of tuba to play on in France written or unwritten. I would imagine that the players at that time just had an unwritten, and probably even unspoken, agreement as to which instrument to use.

Nationalism can be a very strong force in some cultures. Obviously, they were mistaken in their assumptions about what they considered a 'nationalistic' sound. Yet, here we are, discussing the "uniqueness" of that sound...

[Allen]

Perhaps there were engineering issues with this instrument.

Other than that tower in Paris, I am hard pressed to come up with other exceptional French engineered objects.

....

As an engineer, I am aware that French engineering is excellent. There is no need to disparage a people's abilities just because you disagree with their political decisions. It is, of course, regrettable that in a democracy politicians have a tendency to follow popular will, although in England they seem to have made an exception. [And we may find that in certain newly-established democracies, popular will may not be congenial to our interests.]

Regarding the topic: The French tuba in C appears to have suffered the fate of other instruments that are no longer in use, no more, no less. Changing fashions, changing music, influences from abroad, and the availability of more versatile (and perhaps easier to play well) instruments have done their usual job.

[Chuck(G)]

But then again, if there was some type of official document declaring what the best suitable instrument (French tuba in C)for their orchestras, then, yes, they got screwed.

Trends are always changing; sometimes revisited. It is the professional musicians' jobs to keep up with the current trends (mot recently, the BAT?). I feel no sympathy for the guys in the French tubas who were replaced by musicians playing the bigger horns. If they wanted to keep their jobs, they would have learned how to play them!

Actually, the French C tuba is just an episode. Berlioz probably never saw one--the tuba in his day was a little Eb.

As to what the lowest note is when all 6 valves are depressed, I think I can answer that. Recall that the valves worked as follows:

• Valves 2 and 5 both descended 1 semitone (added 15.7 cm to the air column)
• Valve 1 descended 2 semitones (added 32.2 cm to the air column)
• Valve 3 descended 4 semitones (added 68.3 cm to the air column)
• Valve 4 descended 5 semitones (added 87.9 cm to the air column)
• Valve 6 descended 8 semitones (added 154.2 cm to the air column)

So, adding the length of all 6 valves up, I get 374 cm, more or less. That would bring the pitch down to an A natural three lines below the staff and roughly 30 cents flat. Pulling a couple of slides could probably get you to Ab pretty easily.

But note that you probably never needed all six valves at once--at worst you need 3 valves for any note above pedal C. There was quite a bit of flexibility in fingerings; the C# above the pedal could be fingered 136 or 246 or 456.

[Rick Denney]

Other than that tower in Paris, I am hard pressed to come up with other exceptional French engineered objects.

No Francophile me, but in the late 19th century, the French were among the best manufacturers on the planet of high-precision equipment. Their clocks, for example, were better than German clocks and highly sought after. Even their cheap clocks were better made than the mass-produced knock-offs made in the 19th-century third world--America. My collection of American "Black Mantel" clocks from the late 1800's, and the several real French clocks of that type that the Americans were "copying", suggest to me that America was doing to Europe at the time what Japan did to America after WWII, and what the Chinese are doing to Japan now. They were making mass-produced cheap imitations of high-quality products at a low price point, ultimately driving the high-quality producers out of business, but making it possible for ordinary people to own decent clocks. Clocks were the high-tech possession of the day.

I expect French musical instruments from the late 19th century were very well made. I also suspect that the small French C tuba was never improved during the 20th century and was technologically left behind.

Rick "noting that British tuba players used euphoniums before switching to euphonium-sized Barlow F tubas at the turn of the last century" Denney

[windshieldbug]

In fact there's a professor of french tuba, saxhorn and euphonium at the Paris conservatory.

... but I bet that he drives on the "correct" side of the road, unlike some of the rest of the EU...

[Rick Denney]

The euphonium and french tuba in C both have the same ancestor but that's the only characteristic that they share.

Perhaps, then, you can tell us the differences. Is the bore different? Taper design? Bell shape? Leadpipe? Mouthpiece?

They don't look any different in pictures, except for the extra valves and the somewhat different arrangement.

My Miraphone looks mighty different than my York Master--at least as different as, say, a Besson euphonium and an Alexander 151 tenor tuba--but they pretty much do the same things and are useful in the same situations. The differences are noticeable only to a tuba player, and not at all enough to make one a tuba and the other a something else.

Rick "who thinks euphoniumists pick on what tuba players would think small details" Denney