all-round tuba? How?

quinterbourne · Post by **quinterbourne** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:33 am

An "all-round" tuba means a single instrument that is acceptable (but not perfect) for just about all ensembles and repertoire. It can't be a BAT, because that won't work well in brass quintet or Berlioz. It can't be a small 3/4 tuba (or an F tuba) because it won't hold up in a large band or orchestra... can you imagine playing a 3/4 tuba (or an F tuba) in Shostakovich or Wagner?

So, the "all-round" tuba ends up being one that is sized 4/4 to 5/4. It won't overpower a brass quintet. It will have a big enough sound for Shostakovich (but not a huge sound like a BAT could provide). It will be ok for rep like Berlioz, but not perfect. You can play the Vaughn Williams, but not as easily as you would on an F tuba. However, this particular tuba will be perfect for 90% of the stuff you do (ie Tchaikovsky).

Now, the key that this "all-round" tuba is open to debate. I think CC is the "all-round" tuba, but that's just me.

I'm not familiar with Die Meistersinger, besides the famous excerpt, how high does it go? If the music doesn't go above high E or F, then a CC tuba should be fine on it. If you can't play that high on your CC tuba, then you need to practice the high register (an Eb or F tuba won't help out that much).

My theory: If the tuba part is too challenging for the tuba player, then it is very likely (I'd say 99% of the time) that the string parts are too difficult for the string players (so the orchestra would never play that particular piece).

sc_curtis · Post by **sc_curtis** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:34 am

I played Die Meistersinger on CC in college, though looking back, if we were to play it down here, I would most likely play the opening bit on CC, then switch over to an F.

If you're worried about those high notes, just find a spot where it would not sound goofy, and take in down an octave. I studied will Bill Rose for two years, and when I was studying the part to Le Corsair, I only had my CC at the time. He told me that even he many times took the last little bit of the high stuff down (Ab-G-F-E), because he could make it sound better that way.

There is no shame in taking things down an octave, even if you CAN play it. Its all about making music.

bort · Post by **bort** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:12 am

Isn't the phrase "all around"?

For amateurs, I'm sure a lot of it IS cost. Most people don't have the money to buy (or keep) several horns of different sizes and different keys. So, it's a matter of buying 1 horn that will do everything, and relatively well.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:09 am

<img src="http://tinypic.com/2bqvdt" WIDTH="500">

(sorry Kenneth, I couldn't resist putting up a picture of an "all-round CC")

I think for serious players, a 4/4 CC is a good first choice for a horn. But for the more casual player, a BBb is probably more condusive to band playing in the U.S.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:34 am

Rudy 4345
MW Bill Bell
B&S PT4
Conn 5XJ
Miraphone 184
A few others would work.

Tubadork · Post by **Tubadork** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:40 am

most people play meistersinger on CC, I have only been recently playing it on F {the solo part}(and I get a few funny looks for it).
FWIW,
but whatever suits your needs the best is an all around horn, don't worry about the exceptions to the rule.
Bill

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:37 am

Kenneth wrote:Wow, that is a nice picture. Is this a French horn? Do you know the maker's name and the model number?

See this thread for the low-down on this horn:
viewtopic.php?t=5467
_________________________________
Joe Baker, who is awed by the Bloke-o-phone!

glangfur · Post by **glangfur** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:10 pm

This is somewhat similar to a professional doubler's situation. I'm primarily a bass trombone player, so I can't justify owning more than one tuba, and I don't have the practice time to learn more than one set of fingerings.

My solution is a small 4/4 CC tuba, a Conn 3J. I like this horn better than the Yamaha 3/4 CC (though it's sure easy to play in the middle register) because the Conn has a more full-sounding low register for me. It's small enough so that it's probably not really ideal for anything except maybe pit show work and brass quintet, but I think I could take it pretty much anywhere I'd be called for and make it work - particularly since high register on tuba isn't much of an issue for me with my trombone chops.

I think some other doublers choose large Ebs or Fs, and that's probably a great way to go as well.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:57 pm

Like a few others posted here, I played CC on Meistersinger about two years ago. If you really have that much trouble with the high range, I don't think an Eb or F will help you....what you need is some lessons to teach you the technique to play high. For music that is not lickety-split (fast) I'd rather have to play high on a CC than low on an F.

I don't think my technique level would allow me to play V-W on any tuba, no matter what the pitch.

MA

Tubadork · Post by **Tubadork** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:32 pm

ummm...... yeah, range isn't an issue for me with the solo, I've had to play much higher on CC and it's not a practice issue (no offense taken), it just feels better and I have a live DVD of London with a guy doing it on EEb and I just love the sound. I played it on CC for many years, I guess I just wanted a change and my F plays pretty huge when it wants to.

FWIW,
Bill

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:27 am

Doc wrote:I don't know anyone who does Meistersinger on F or Eb outside of Europe. The tuba is doubling the contrabasses in most parts of the piece, so you need a tuba that is appropriate. Soli (with the basses), not solo (alone). Do what you want, but I think the part should be played on a contrabass tuba, as that best fits the job of the tuba in that piece - another contrabass. The part is VERY playable on CC or BBb. I've performed it on a BAT CC, and it was just fine. I wouldn't have any fears about playing it on my BBb either. Yeah, it may be easier on F, but that doesn't fit, IMO.

(Disclaimer: the following comment has already been discussed to death, and folks still tend to just choose the horn they would have chosen anyway.)

The Meistersinger was written for F tuba!

chronolith · Post by **chronolith** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:21 pm

The "all around" tuba is whatever tuba you can do the most on in all situations. For many that horn is in the 4/4 and 5/4 area, but not for everybody - that is why there are so many excpetions to what size of horn is the all-around horn. Picking a smaller horn for higher range passages is not a solution for the high range but for the sound and blend you are trying to get with the group. I think I remember something about Arnold Jacobs playing Bydlo on a gigantic BBb horn. The solution to range problems is practice and air.

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on what the all around tuba is, but maybe we should just pick a good versatile horn and strive to be the "all-around" player.

I myself only have one horn (you see, I am married...). I know that money is an issue very well. Practice is free.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:26 pm

chronolith wrote:The solution to range problems is practice and air... There seems to be a lot of emphasis on what the all around tuba is, but maybe we should just pick a good versatile horn and strive to be the "all-around" player

Well put!

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:33 pm

You can either play the high e or you can't. It doesn't matter what pitch tuba you have. It might be more secure on an F, but if you can hear the notes, they'll come out on whatever you're playing.

If you can't play the notes, play it down an octave. It the director has a problem with that, he or she should readjust his/her expectations of an amateur group.

Christian

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:08 pm

It's fun playing that high - kind of like a natural trumpet, no valves required!

J.Harris · Post by **J.Harris** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:48 pm

I've played Meistersinger on a large BBflat- range isn't the problem-its control in the high range that's a challenge.

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:25 pm

Doc wrote:
UncleBeer wrote: The Meistersinger was written for F tuba!
TOUCHE'!

However, we aren't in Europe, hence my earlier reference to Europe vs. America.

So, (keeping in mind that Wagner was European, as was DaVinci), if the Mona Lisa were to be on exhibit somewhere in the US, would the locals be allowed to paint a moustache on her, just cuz they found it 'purtee'?

Why should aberrant local taste be allowed to mar a creator's work?

[I play Meistersinger on my BAT Eb; best o' both worlds!]

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:26 pm

Doc wrote:I like that big bass sound in Meistersinger that you get from a big tuba added with the basses. *beats chest like gorilla*

I am sure you are familiar with a fairly high profile audition within the last couple of years where any tuba players who played Meistersinger on an F tuba were immediately disqualified.

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:31 pm

MartyNeilan wrote:I am sure you are familiar with a fairly high profile audition within the last couple of years where any tuba players who played Meistersinger on an F tuba were immediately disqualified.

I'd bet folding money that there wasn't a single tuba player on the committee (meaning they "didn't know much about tooooba playin', but they knew what they liked". )

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:48 pm

MartyNeilan wrote:I am sure you are familiar with a fairly high profile audition within the last couple of years where any tuba players who played Meistersinger on an F tuba were immediately disqualified.

Kinda harsh if they didn't at least ask for what they wanted. I never played for a music director that was the least bit shy about doing so...