An inexpensive fourth valve project completed

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:08 pm

A playable four-valve tuba suitable for average high school students can rarely be found for less that $1000, and it is not easy for most kids and/or parents to scrape together that kind of money. Three-valve tubas that can easily be made playable can be found for much less. With that in mind I recently grafted a junky old rotary valve onto a junky old Conn 12J to create a "frugalhorn":

The valve is one that I bought for about $5 more than 40 years ago from the junk pile in a music store in Switzerland; the tubing is mostly from old sousaphones. The large-bore tubing makes the instrument much less stuffy and mellower-sounding in the low register than a regular Conn 15J, for example.

Routing the extra plumbing in front of the pre-existing tubing has several advantages: it affords a resting place for the thumb which is much more comfortable than a thumb ring, it offers some protection for the pistons, and it makes possible a very long 4th tuning slide. This slide can be pushed in to make 12&4 exactly in tune, can be pulled out to make 4 alone in tune, can be pulled some more to make 2&4 in tune, or can be pulled out still more to make 4 alone work instead of 2&4.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:58 pm

I like it!

jacobg · Post by **jacobg** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:05 pm

So,
How much did it cost?
How much would it cost the average consumer to go to the average repair shop to have done?
Why isn't it done more often?

ArnoldGottlieb · Post by **ArnoldGottlieb** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:08 pm

Nice job Art! Would you mind posting a photo showing someone's hand playing the 4th valve. It might be a great solution for kids who normally can't play that valve because of small hands.
Peace. ASG

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:34 pm

Or a short pinky, like me!

Daniel C. Oberloh · Post by **Daniel C. Oberloh** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:41 pm

Interesting

, Hmm, the images have made me a bit peckish ....... mmm ...... spaghetti.... Time for lunch!

Daniel C. Oberloh
Repair technician to the stars (Floyd and Emma Star of Humptulips WA)
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Seattle, WA
206.241.5767
www.oberloh.com

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:18 pm

Art, being a cheapskate like I am, I've contemplated trying something like that. You may have given me the push I needed; anyone have a spare .770 (+/- .020) rotary valve kicking around, and some matching tubing?

I'd be interested to see a picture of the linkage. I can't really tell just how it hooks up. Not that I'd be able to copy your work; mine's a top-valver. Still, I'm interested how that linkage works!

FWIW, I'm seriously considering an idea someone suggested a couple of years ago: using a very small hydraulic setup to actuate the valve. I'm not quite sure where I want it located, and by making it hydraulic I can try several locations 'til I find one I like.

I also want to try something like that bass-bone you did awhile back, but using hydraulic lines to replace the linkage, rather than soldering a spring-bar to the bell. Someday...
____________________________
Joe Baker, who will take a measurement to be sure, then post in the "For Sale" section looking for that rotary valve & tubing.

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:39 pm

bloke wrote:... I have a stack of Olds contrabugle carcasses sitting around. I pretty much took what I needed off of them and one of the things that remains on each one is the piston w/casing and adjoining slide tubing. The bore size of these is c. .650".
...
Maybe...???...this would work out on something like a Conn 10J, etc...?? By no means are these anywhere close to "installation-ready" for such an application.

Interestingly, you and I were typing our responses at about the same time, and (is it possible you remember this???) my little 3-top-banger is ... a Conn 10J! I'll have a look and see if it would lend itself to a adding another one up top (or maybe besson-style with the wrong hand, or even Thein style, with a thumb-activated sideways piston). I'll let you know if I'm interested.

Actually, what are the bell & bows like on those? Would it be at all feasible to relocate the 10J valve section to the Olds-with-another-valve carcass? (If you don't want to speculate, I'd be obliged if you'd post a pic or two of one of the Olds bugle bodies)

Still, .650 IS awfully dinky, and the idea of having a rotor that I can set up with larger tubing for the 4th DOES appeal to me....
________________________
Joe Baker, whose mind is just boggling!!

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:04 pm

I would like to do the same thing to my King 1240 but with a thumb valve like the new Conn 56Js. I am also thinking of tuning it to Eb rather than F to get the low register better. and then make either the 1st or 3rd valve pullable for the 1& 3 and 1,2,& 3 combinations.

ken k

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:18 pm

Joe Baker wrote:I'd be interested to see a picture of the linkage. I can't really tell just how it hooks up. Not that I'd be able to copy your work; mine's a top-valver. Still, I'm interested how that linkage works!

Well, here's what I did with a 3 valve flugel; I just added a valve of the right bore from a french horn. The linkage is the same as on the horn, I just bent the paddle a little to make it fit right under the pinky. Same thing might work for a top action...

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:43 pm

ken k wrote:I would like to do the same thing to my King 1240 but with a thumb valve like the new Conn 56Js. I am also thinking of tuning it to Eb rather than F to get the low register better. and then make either the 1st or 3rd valve pullable for the 1& 3 and 1,2,& 3 combinations.

ken k

My 10J has the main tuning slide in the lead-pipe, and it naturally falls right under my hand as I hold the horn; so I play a lot of trombone when I get down low, and that generally works pretty well. I think what I want to do is mount the trigger ON THE SLIDE, which a flexible hydraulic hose will let me do. That way, my left hand never leaves the slide, but can simultaneously push and pull the tuning slide, and also activate the fourth valve.

IT... COULD... WORK!!
_________________________________
Joe Baker, who wishes Bloke wasn't selling those cotton-pickin' pistons so cheap, as they are really making this a tough decision!

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:54 pm

Thank you for all of your encouraging comments.
Here are some more photos: (Sorry about the lack of quality; I am photographically challenged.)

http://i2.tinypic.com/ou5gtz.jpg
LinkageBackside2
http://i2.tinypic.com/ou5h88.jpg
closeupSideView
http://i2.tinypic.com/ou5hqa.jpg
CloseupFrontView2
http://i2.tinypic.com/ou5hyt.jpg
Mechanism Closeup

The one good thing about rotary valve linkages is that you can remodel them to fit your hand. I am still fiddling with this one, trying to make it better without starting all over. I made a finger paddle by soldering a nickel onto the brass rod. It's still not as comfortable as I would like, but I have noticed that it can easily be worked by my left hand if my right pinky gets tired. I think I will try putting a button extender onto the third valve.