Mudman wrote: Entry level college jobs pay around $40,000.
Oh, Really?
Yep. Surprised? Some areas of the country are a little lower or higher. Major universities pay more. $30,000 would be really low. Pay increases are small when going from assistant prof to associate prof.
Accountancy or business professors can easily start at $60,000-$80,000 at a state school. It is easy for them to make more in the private sector--the universities have to pay to attract qualified teachers.
In music, it is a buyer's market.
My bad. I guess I was just thinking about all those adjunct positions where the same guy teaches at 5 schools and eats his bologna sandwich in the car while shuttling between them to make ends meet and still call himself a prof.
You are on track about the full time spots.
It is interesting to note that the average college is using a much greater percentage of adjuncts than they were just a few years ago.
You know, I've always wondered why the university tuba studios seem to have it as goal to keep expanding, but most top-notch conservatories have only one or two tuba spots and no more than that, period.
Chuck(G) wrote:You know, I've always wondered why the university tuba studios seem to have it as goal to keep expanding, but most top-notch conservatories have only one or two tuba spots and no more than that, period.
Most universities have multiple playing outlets, while a conservatory has only one or two orchestras, and therefore quite less of an opportunity to play.
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
When selecting a university, keep in mind first and foremost that EVERYONE is trying to sell you some sort of product. They don't really care all that much about telling you the whole truth as long as they get your money. I have been around to a few colleges in my day, and I must say that NONE of them really are as dandy and nice looking as their propaganda materials would lead you to believe (especially state schools)
I suggest that you find someone you want to study under and disregard the institution that they teach at.
HOWEVER, like many on this board, I would advocate being well-rounded in your education. Learn something else, and perhaps you may find you have a passion for something other than music as well.
I went to a graduate school that required a minor not related to the major. I chose psychology. Today I work as an educator of at risk kids, meaning my Master of Music degree served me quite well, thanks to the minor.
You couldn't do THAT in a conservatory.
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You only have one chance to make a first impression. Don't blow it.
windshieldbug wrote:Most universities have multiple playing outlets, while a conservatory has only one or two orchestras, and therefore quite less of an opportunity to play.
You could have put that a bit more concisely as "Conservatories don't have marching bands."
Do you want an education, or training for a job? It's a serious question.
If you want an education, go to a university. Major in music, but don't limit yourself just to music. Study widely. Don't hide from math just because you're a music major, for example. Education is where you learn widely, not where you train.
I don't know a well-educated and hard-working person who found themselves unable to make a decent living doing something.
If you want job training, then go to a place where job training is provided. It may be a trade school, or it may be a conservatory, depending on the target job. Don't expect it to give you the broad base of education needed to be able to do pretty much anything.
But before going down the job-training road, make sure the road leads somewhere. It's not a versatile choice, and changing direction may require a good deal of time spent in reverse gear.
Of course, some conservatories, like some trade schools, provide a semblance of an education to a greater extent than others. But at such places it is a sideline, not the main gig.
When Arnold Jacobs attended Curtis, he had no real intention of becoming "educated". That was not something a person that grew up as he did would expect out of life. He did hope to achieve a good living. And that was attending Curtis! For Jacobs, the education came later, on his own.
A Bachelor of Science or a Bachelor of Arts is called that and not a Certificate in Performance or a Certificate in Engineering because it's supposed to be a general education. The Master's degree is where you get to focus on a specific profession in detail, or on the job (or with private instruction).
Personally, I think the job-training route is appropriate for those few people who 1.) are extraordinarily predisposed to success in one particular line of work (that means an abundance of talent and aptitude), and 2.) cannot conceive of themselves doing anything else (which had better lead to an abundance of motivation, especially for professions hotly contested like music).
For everyone else, a good general education at the undergraduate level will, I believe, give them a stronger foundation for later life, however they choose to live it. Deciding on a career is a lot easier at age 22 than at age 18.
Most people who know me cannot conceice of me being anything but an engineer. But I didn't come to that conclusion myself until I was 21 and a junior in college. I had specialized too much in the line of study I'd chosen (skipping math and physics, for example), and the change required quite a lot of backing up. Despite strong engineering aptitude and prediliction, I was not capable of making a valid choice at age 18.
Rick "who thinks this is not just a question for musicians" Denney
I truly believe that it really makes no difference whether you go to a conservatory or university. The two most important deciding factors of your success at any institution will be 1) the quality of the teacher, and 2) your personal determination and work ethic. You can find equally great teachers and players at conservatories and universities. Anyone who thinks a university is not the setting great players come out of should tell that to Dan Perantoni, Fritz Kaenzig, Velvet Brown, Tommy Johnson, Jim Self, Brian Bowman, Sam Pilafian, Craig Knox, Mike Roylance, Dave Zerkel, Ben Pierce, Steve Campbell, John Stevens, etc. (All of these top notch tuba players teach at universities, excuse me for leaving anyone out, this is just a list off the top of my head). Or you could argue with Alan Baer, Gene Pokorny, or Carol Jantsch to name a few orchestral players who attended universities. I am not trying to argue that there are no good conservatory teachers, there definitely are some equally great teachers at many conservatories. I just believe that your education doesn't take place at a school; it takes place between your ears. You'll get out of it what you put in. There's my $0.02.
(Again, please, no one get mad for the many people I left off of my list. I just wanted to make a point.)
Where you go depends on what you want to do with your life.
If you truly wish to perform... then you must give it 100%. This means going to a conservatory. A conservatory focuses on performing, actually getting a paid gig.
If you don't give performance your 100%, there will be someone out there who does, and he/she will have a distinct advantage over you (ie if you went to a university and he/she went to a convervatory).
If you go to a university you aren't focusing on music performance.
If you'd like to perform on the side and have a "real job" to fall back onto, then you want to go to a university. It isn't realistic to go to a university while having a plan on performing full time unless you plan on going to a conservatory after getting your degree. Exception: you're a naturally talented virtuoso.
Going to a university to get a degree followed by a conservatory (for a diploma or masters degree) is something I would strongly encourage. A lot of debt though, and a lot of years in school.
I was a performance major as an undergraduate--YES, I WAS FOCUSED ON PERFORMANCE. I played professional gigs to support myself and my family (I was an older student). We always had the impression that conservatory students were snobs. All academia is an artificial environment. The real world doesn't work the way it works in school. But in a conservatory, it's all about music. In a university, it's about every aspect of life. Musicians should aspire to be well-rounded.
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You only have one chance to make a first impression. Don't blow it.
bloke wrote:
hey...excuse me, but it is my understanding that drugs, alcohol, and illicit sex occur in both the "university" and the "conservatory" environment.
Also in the institution where I received my Master's degree: a theological seminary!
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You only have one chance to make a first impression. Don't blow it.
Chuck(G) wrote:You know, I've always wondered why the university tuba studios seem to have it as goal to keep expanding, but most top-notch conservatories have only one or two tuba spots and no more than that, period.
Simple. University tuba studios cater to students who are getting a broad education - of which playing tuba/euph is a significant PART.
SOME of them will become professional tubists, some of them will not...and that's ok.
At a conservatory, if you have one of the two tuba slots, you are ALREADY a professional tubist.
on the third hand...in my professional opinion it doesn't really matter if you attend an undergraduate college or a conservatory. If you attend a college, it doesn't really matter what you major in.
What is important is......
that you FINISH!
To a very large degree, undergraduate years merely serve to keep the youngsters off the street and reasonably honorably occupied. It's a time when students discover what it is that they want to do 24/7....at least for the next 10 years - it's likely that this is a decision that must be re-visited at least once a decade.
The only way to screw up, in the eyes of the rest of the world, is to fail to finiish. (note that for conservatory students "finishing" may mean "getting a real gig")
In some fields, this idea of "keeping the kiddies off the streets" continues through undergraduate years, graduate school, and one or two post-docs. At every stage, some of the students will discover that they would rather do something else and peel off. Those who stick
with it get the "real jobs".
Many jobs require specific technical skills, and some require "certification" , but most college students really only need to be certified as "college graduates". Five years after graduation, very few folk ask "what was your major?"
It is most certainly to do with the strategy such a person SHOULD take; it is NOT NECESSARILY only about maximizing the possibility of that SINGLE outcome, however. I quite a few are focusing on striking a balance between preparing for the pot of gold, but not leaving oneself entirely without options should that pot of gold not develop.
Imagine for a moment that the person asking the question was an aspiring football player -- the BEST player his small town has produced in a generation. Imagine that he comes to you and asks, "Hey, Mr. Bloke, I'm trying to decide whether to use my football scholarship to get a real education, or just take the easiest, minimum possible load to stay enrolled so I can play football." Do you tell him to do the minimum school work so he can focus on training year 'round? Or do you -- knowing that his chances of actually making it in the NFL are quite slim -- encourage him to work hard on his football skills, but to use the opportunity to get a college degree?
I'd tell him to get a real degree. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying; are you suggesting that you'd suggest he take a minimal number of fluff courses, and concentrate 99% of his effort on football, since that would maximize his chances of one of the rare jobs in that profession?
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Joe Baker, who is really not sure he is understanding bloke correctly.
"Luck" is what happens when preparation meets opportunity -- Seneca
...Is this thread, basically, about the best educational strategy for each of the 500 currently enrolled students (nationwide) who hope to be appointed to one of the bi-/tri-annually-available tuba playing jobs that become available in American declining-in-number professional symphony orchestras...??...
...or is it about something else?
I'm convinced that every university "tuba farm" could cease operation, and every conservatory decide that there's no need to cater to tubas and there would still be no shortage of qualified applicants for tuba spots in US orchestras.
Imagine for a moment that the person asking the question was an aspiring football player -- the BEST player his small town has produced in a generation.
That's an easy one...Here he is (on the left) three years later...
Are you sure?? I'd have sworn he was that guy from W. Undershirt who made first-chair All State on clarinet three years ago. HECK of a player.
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Joe Baker, who works with a guy (computer programmer) who chose between Eastman and Ithica on (French) horn. He used to sub frequently for Knoxville S.O., but seems to have neither time nor inclination these days. He's VERY glad he didn't go to Eastman.
"Luck" is what happens when preparation meets opportunity -- Seneca
