York Monster Eb v Besson Sovereign Eb

[Dean E]

After a 40-year layoff following HS, I resumed playing two years ago on a York Eb monster 3-valve with about a 20" bell.

Comments were along the line of "Your horn sure sounds good," and I got many invitations to join community bands, which I did. A musician who used to play and record with Tommy Dorsey made my day by telling me how good the York sounded.

The York has a great set of false tones, but I only used Ab and G. From 2nd-line Bb on down, its sound is rich and fullly rounded, and can easily support a 50-person band or chamber orchestra, especially when I use a big Denis Wick 1 mouthpiece.

As an Eb, my sense is that its articulation is cleaner and more immediate than larger bore, typical BBbs I hear, and the 5/4 CC Willson I've been playing the last three months.

Tones going up the staff are certain, clear, rich and resonant, and the horn makes it easy to improvise and peg notes an octave higher than written (when there's another tuba to stay in the basement).

Mark, who frequents tubenet, has a 4-valve York Eb monster and may honor us with his views if we're lucky.

Sorry, but I cannot comment on the Besson.

[Mark E. Chachich]

My opinions about the York Monster E flat:

I have been playing a 4 valve York Monster E flat since 1978. As my bass tuba it has served well (I use a CC as my main tuba). The sound is typical York; steady, beautiful and a nice blend with other brass and other instruments. I can also make it sound more direct (and less beautiful) when needed. I have received good comments from tubists and non-tuba musicians about the sound in different types of musical groups from quintet to fairly large brass choirs and bands.

I use a small mouthpiece (Bach 25) on this tuba. With a small mouthpiece and I find that the intonation is good and the sound in all registers is excellent. The response is also excellent in all registers (including low). My experience is that too large of a mouthpiece causes problems for this tuba. I have even used my York Monster E flat to play the low part in tuba ensembles, even for this type of duty the tuba was fine.

These tubas are very sturdy with fairly strong metal. It is my opinion that the York tuba was a product of excellent craftsmen.

Dean sounds very good on both his York and Willson. I also think that his comments on the York E flat are on the money.

best,
Mark


P.S.
It would be good to hear from some of our English E flat Besson players about their tubas. Clearly, these are also fine tubas.

[Donn]

P.S.
It would be good to hear from some of our English E flat Besson players about their tubas. Clearly, these are also fine tubas.

I think it would be interesting to know how the old Monsters sound compared to similar modern instruments. Like the YEB 321, for example, almost as small bore (.689) and about as big a bell from the pictures, though the flare is not as wide.

[davet]

I think it would be interesting to know how the old Monsters sound compared to similar modern instruments. Like the YEB 321, for example,

I have both a York Monster and a YEB321. The York is almost as "soft and full" as the Yama. Both have a nice full sound, however, since I'm pretty much a hack I can't speak for what they would sound like in the hands of a real tuba player!

The YEB321 is easier to play in tune- the York is easier to fill a room with (ouch- bad grammar)- the YEB is easier to carry through a doorway!

[imperialbari]

This thread opens some tricky questions, which also touches on personal tastes and playing styles.

Some of the most ugly tuba playing I ever heard was done on the old 15" Besson/B&H Eb comper and on its 19" successor with the old narrow receiver/leadpipe, basically the current 982. And then by Roger Bobo playing very "colourfully" on a B&S F. Bobo is a musician of hyper-human levels. But soundwise I am not impressed at all.

In that respect give me Carol Jantsch any day. Not because she is younger and of a more interesting sex, but because she is a musician exercising immense control of the tuba. Just as an aside to all of her other high level musical qualities.

As I read my sources, the 19" Besson/B&H versions had their bells very much inspired by York. Actually B&H owned the York name some decades ago.

If the 981 leadpipe is a stroke of genius or something just happening, because B&H had to make a low-set, and hence fast expanding, leadpipe for the not so tall John Fletcher is partially beyond me. A 33 years old discussion in vito with Denis Wick convinces me, that the team of DW and JF pretty well knew, what they did.

My being in love with my 981 hardly has been kept a secret to this forum. I started out using a DW1L, but then phoned Bob Tucci in Munich. He thought I was crazy, when I ordered a PT-50 for the 981. I opened up the backbore getting myself the CC’ish effect I wanted. When I was in full shape, I had 6+ octaves, which was acceptable for my level of ambitions.

The problems I have with the 981 are these:

The 5th and 10th partials are flat, if my embouchure doesn’t hit its best day. I very easily can finger my ways around that problem.

Joe sent me an MP3 of one of his students playing the S&S piccolo solo on an old York Monster Eb. Aside from the brilliant playing my main problem on my set up of the 981 would be to match the projection of the old York.

But then I don’t really consider the tuba being a solo instrument for my purposes. There I use bassbone, euph, and recorders.

If I grab a tuba, everything is about creating foundation. There the 981 wins any Eb competition. Some say it is stuffy in the range just above the pedal. I don’t agree. My approach is, that the full command of the full dynamic bandwith just takes some really hard practising. And yes I have cheated on that matter: I also have 3 BBb’s for that range of work.

If a personal note may be allowed: my personal doctor and a former student helped me fight off fatal illness 4 or 5 months ago. A team of doctors and nurses have saved my eyesight from a complicated line up of eye diseases through a daily fight during the last month. That fight will have to go on every single day for the rest of my life. I have to express my gratefulness towards the people helping me.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[pg]

Keep hangin' in there Klaus. We're pullin' for you,

--paul;

[imperialbari]

Like you Klaus, I think the straightish wide bore leadpipe on the 981 was a spot of genius. I don't know what Besson were thinking of when they changed it to a swan-necked version after Fletcher's death. IMHO they never played as well.

I am not able to verify you on that one, as I never have seen the original version of the 981. I am not even sure, that a sample may be found in my country, as Denmark and especially Norway are "982-areas".

The story about my 981 acqusition is a bit special:

In late 1998 my mortgage company sent me a very favourable lending offer, because I due to my stable payments had reached some sort of VIP-status. I owned just about anything needed from piccolo trumpet through bassbone and euph in high end pro versions. But my only "tuba" was the Conn 26K sousaphone. Brilliant as my morning warm-up instrument, fine for my playing lead in my self-arranged duets with my late friend Ove, and a sure hit in our for-kids concerts.

But I wanted a for real tuba. I was, in early 1999, sent an offer on a 981 from a Copenhagen shop, which had cheated on me a couple of times (I have got my revenges coming out clearly on top of them).

I didn’t want to buy from them, but I tried out anything available in the shop, where I am the company historian (they were founded well over 200 years ago). The Yamaha options were not relevant, as they rattled. Very odd, as my YEP-641 is the dynamically most stable instrument I ever tested aside with my 981.

The 983 came close, but was too smallish.

I went to the cheater shop and tried their 981. The company clerk had pulled the slides, "so that the tuning would be optimal". What an idiot!

I pushed in the slides. Did my flexibility tests, checked the intonation of the sore spots, checked the response by playing fast triple tonguing on every single note in a 4 octave range, tested if I could play my tuning reference hymn in some difficult keys, among them A major.

And then I went back to my "home" shop and ordered them to have Besson make me a 981. Besson didn’t build tubas for storage, but only to firm orders.

My sample arrived 3 months later. It was better than the test specimen I think. Or I had become a better player by practising (with a Danish saying) like death and devil on the lesser models made available to me temporarely.

When I tested my 981 just after its arrival, one of the repairmen said, that he never had heard so fast runs on a tuba. As a recorder player I am used to play with extreme speeds, and a few licks are possible to transfer to the tuba.

The same guy spoiled my range stunt. When I had hit the 16th partial in a chromatic progression to test response, that bad boy exclaimed: "Now he will call out for a horn mouthpiece!"

I am a horn player also and a joke cracker myself, so I bent over with laughter, so no more playing for the next hour.

About the revised shape of the 981 leadpipe shape I have to express mixed feelings:

For a person of my size, 179 cm, with a long torso and a long neck, the reshaping is ideal from an ergonomical point of view.

As I understand the Besson reshaping philosophy, they shape the 982 leadpipe over a mandrel, which is conical up to 0.689" all the way from the receiver end through the point of joining the valve block.

But then the 981 has its leadpipe shaped over a mandrel, which is only conical at the receiver end. The 981 leadpipe only is conical at a length equalling the length of the old Fletch style straight leadpipe. That is: it hits the .689" mark about 60% down its length.

The price paid is, that the lengthened leadpipe causes a shorthening of the main tuning slide. That implies, that part of the cylindrical bore is being moved from a wide bore area, actually the tuning slide is dual bore, to a less wide bore area of the main bugle.

I recognise that fact changing the character of the overall bore profile, but it hasn’t bothered me. In hindsight it may be the reason, why I use a hysterically large mouthpiece to resurrect the grandioso of the original 981 design.

The shortened main tuning slide has caused me problems, as I due to my extremely strong and at the same time extremely relaxed embouchure am a "sharp" player except on piccolo trumpet. My workaround is to tune the Bb leadpipe to A. Transposing is just a matter of course for a musicologist.

I ordered a longer tuning slide, which is very easy to make, but Besson never managed to deliver on that order. Despite my not so beatiful voice, I am trained as a singer, so I just adjusted my technique. Getting the 981 even more CC’ish that way as a positive aside.

Getting longish in your eyes, getting tired in my own. Please be tolerant!

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[iiipopes]

Hang in there! I enjoy the reading.