Vinegar cleaning question>

[ArnoldGottlieb]

So, I got the gallons of vinegar I need to clean a few horns. How long do I let it stay in the horn before flushing it out? Thanks.
Peace.
ASG

[Chuck(G)]

Assuming room temperature, 3-6 hours should get most calcium deposits out. You can re-use the vinegar for future cleanings.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Thank you both. I'm trying to do an "in between" cleaning, I've been sick a couple of times this winter and I figured at 1.50 a gallon I'd give the vinegar a shot.
Bloke--would you recommend something else for "home use"? I have a brother with a boatyard and all kinds of chemicals that kill all kinds of growing things, and I have some experience using the stuff on boats, but not on tubas. I figured it might be kind of harsh for the horn. Maybe not?
Thanks.
Peace.
ASG

[Art Hovey]

I would suggest experimenting with part of an old junk horn first.
I have seen more than one old tuba in which the solder where the leadpipe meets the valve block has corroded away. If normal playing can do that I suspect that an acid can do so more quickly. Personally, I prefer soap and water and a snake brush.

Last fall I was trying to tap threads into a stainless steel rod that I had bored a hole into, and I managed to break off the tool and couldn't extract what was left of it from the hole. After a couple of weeks in a jar of vinegar the broken tap was completely gone, and the stainless steel was unscathed.

[Matt Good]

...OTOH...I've your horn isn't all caked up on the inside with mess/lime/etc. and you're just trying to kill some leftover germs, why not just clean out the m'pipe and removable slides with 1/ vinegar 2/ water 3/ bleach (???) 4/ valve oil, and then drench the rest of the instrument's interior with valve oil (or, cheaper - lamp oil)?

Joe,

This is exactly what I do. I buy unscented/smokeless lamp oil by the gallon at Ace Hardware. It works for me.

-Matt

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I wonder if a local repair-guy might sell you a container (or partial container) of "Slime Away" (powdered form). The stuff isn't all that expensive (...not "dirt cheap, but...) and doesn't fume.

Depending on the concentration mix and how dirty the solution is, it will take care of a tuba in 10 min. - 30 min.

It would require a bunch of well-fitting rubber stoppers (hardware store), but you could actually do this job withOUT a huge vat - by supporting your tuba face-down on a surface (preferably out-of-doors) and "flooding" the tuba's guts. You would only need one (or maybe two) upward-facing outlet for air displacement. As "Slime-Away" ain't cheap, you would want to try to recover at least 80%-90% of the stuff by draining it out of your horn into a container...

...OTOH...I've your horn isn't all caked up on the inside with mess/lime/etc. and you're just trying to kill some leftover germs, why not just clean out the m'pipe and removable slides with 1/ vinegar 2/ water 3/ bleach (???) 4/ valve oil, and then drench the rest of the instrument's interior with valve oil (or, cheaper - lamp oil)?

Thanks for more food for thought. I've been using soap and water for a while. I was just thinking that after reading about all of these people droping off their horns for a service after they're sick it might be nice of me to put the vinegar down the thing. I hoping for a chem clean on my good horn in the next month, as far as my extra horn that I hardly ever use (and is "kind of" for sale), I was thinking I might tackle that one myself. Perhaps I'll see if there is some "slime away" at the boatyard. All the acid I've worked with has been in liquid form, open an anti freeze looking jar, pour it in the sprayer and watch for the wind. This job I think could be done at least halfway indoors......
Thanks.
Peace.
ASG

[Dan Schultz]

I wonder if a local repair-guy might sell you a container (or partial container) of "Slime Away" (powdered form). The stuff isn't all that expensive (...not "dirt cheap, but...) and doesn't fume.

The deep, dark secret of most of these compounds that are sold commercially is that the active ingredient is sulfamic acid. In addition to sulfamic acid, the commercially prepared compounds such as Slime-Away also contain surfactants to help 'wet out' the surfaces being cleaned. I keep a seven gallon bucket of Slime-Away that works just fine for smaller instruments, but if I want to do an entire sousa or large tuba, I also keep a 150 gallon tank of sulfamic acid. If you haven't recognized the name yet, ... this is the same stuff that contractors use to expose the aggregate in concrete. They used to use muriatic acid, but since sulfamic acid comes in crystal form, it is a lot easier to store and handle. The crystals will only go into solution in water to about 10% by weight. Five pounds make about five gallons. It's failry safe to use since the acid will not become any stronger than will disolve in water. If it evaporates, the acid simply returns to it's crystal form and the solution never get stronger.

I don't mean for everyone to run to your local chemical supply house and purchase this stuff, but if you have a buddy in the contracting business, know a bricklayer, or concrete finisher... some of you do-it-your-selfers might inquire about 'borrowing' a pound or two of the crystals and make your own brew. As always though... rubber gloves, a plastic apron, and protective eyewear are required.

When using any type of acid (including vinegar) to remove lime and calcium deposits from brass... the trick is to know how long to leave the instrument in the solution. This is going to vary according to how heavy the deposits are. It's going to take a while using a weak acid such as vinegar. There is no reason to leave the brass submerged any longer that necessary because ANY acid can damage plated and lacquered finishes if left in too long. Looking into the first valve slide every five minutes or so is a good indication. When the deposits are gone there, you can be pretty much certain that the entire horn is clean. Speaking of clean... the acid cleaning process will be MUCH more effective if the inside of the horn is cleaned thoroughly with a warm mix of water and dishwashing liquid such as Dawn.

[Chuck(G)]

A few hours in vinegar isn't going to hurt anything much at all.

Still, given that calcium seems to accumulate in crooks and leadpipes more than other places, I'd probably just soak the tuning slides and scrub the leadpipe out, rather than waste gallons of vinegar on the whole horn.

Sulfamic acid does have very big advantage over muriatic in the shop. Muriatic vapors eventually infiltrate everywhere and anything that can rust, will. But it's hard to beat for really tough cleaning jobs.

[Chuck(G)]

The deep, dark secret of most of these compounds that are sold commercially is that the active ingredient is sulfamic acid.

Hey Dan, maybe you could reduce the threat of red rot by using some of that sealer (I forget the name) that you were experimenting with on the inside of the horn after a cleaning...?

[Dan Schultz]

The deep, dark secret of most of these compounds that are sold commercially is that the active ingredient is sulfamic acid.

Hey Dan, maybe you could reduce the threat of red rot by using some of that sealer (I forget the name) that you were experimenting with on the inside of the horn after a cleaning...?

The material is Coricone 1700. I've been using it on raw brass in leu of lacquer and it seems to be holding up very well. I think it would probably do a very nice job at sealing things up on the inside as well but haven't really looked into using it for that... yet! The trouble with red rot is that by the time you see it, you've got real troubles! It's waaaay too late!

[iiipopes]

This is what I do:

In a 5-gallon bucket I use about 1/2 gallon of distilled vinegar, a cup of salt, liberal amount of dishwashing liquid (like Ivory) and fill it up with water as hot as I can stand it. When everything dissolves, I fill up the tuba and soak it for about 15-20 minutes, then rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse. The salt activates the vinegar and gets much more corrosion out, while the dishwashing liquid dissolves the greasy grime. My 70-year old sousaphone literally came out smelling like "roses." (The dishsoap my wife happened to have on hand!)

Just don't empty the solution on grass or near a flowerbed.

Of course, I take the valves out and slides off and clean them separately in the solution, after taking off the tops, felts and corks, with the usual snake brush and cloth.

Did I say rinse?

For those of you who are chemists, the salt does work. It really works. That's why I said rinse. Of course, I save this heavy solution for corrosion so bad that it's either that or an unplayable horn, and the surfactants in the soap help to buffer the reaction. But don't take my word for it:

http://www.chem.umn.edu/outreach/Car...VinCopper.html

Did I happen to mention rinse?

Oh, yeah: rinse.

When you're done with all that, rinse some more!

Rinse

[Dan Schultz]

This is what I do:

In a 5-gallon bucket I use about 1/2 gallon of distilled vinegar, a cup of salt, liberal amount of dishwashing liquid (like Ivory) and fill it up with water as hot as I can stand it.

That might be a good home-brew... but, be cautous about the hot water. Don't construe this to mean boiling water as water that is TOO hot may cause some serious problems with lacquer removal.

[iiipopes]

Dan -- you're right about the temperature. I mean as hot as you can stand and still work with it with your hands -- tap water hot with the new anti-scalding devices -- definitely NOT boiling!!

Thanks for your observation.