"Value" of an education.

chevy68chv · Post by **chevy68chv** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:40 pm

Money might be an issue for your parents, and that is a pretty good offer you've been given. Try taking a lesson from their instructor and see how you like it before making a decision. If it doesn't go so well then you have even more ammo for convincing the parentals.

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:05 am

As a parent paying for one college student and with another due to start in 17 months, I can tell you that most parents sweat paying for college. Assuming middle-class income, I can easily see where the difference in cost could make a significant difference in your parents' ability to afford college. It would be unrealistic to ignore this factor.

You could always pay the difference yourself, I suppose; but I know the year I majored in music it took so much of my time I couldn't work (or was I just horrible at time management? Could be...). I'd be hesitant to suggest that anyone majoring in music should try to hold a job at the same time.

Perhaps there is a way to have the best of both worlds. MTSU (Middle TN State University, to those who've never been to Murfreesboro, Tennessee before) and Tennessee Tech are about an hour and a half apart, right? You could always attend MTSU, and also take extra lessons from Mr. Morris (I believe I've heard that he accepts students in addition to his TTU students -- someone will correct me if I'm mistaken).
_________________________________
Joe Baker, whose daughter called from Baylor University TODAY to say she wants to transfer to MTSU.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:31 am

Where you go to college will not impact your ability to get a job, especially in music. What will impact it is whether the faculty at the school you choose can help you achieve your potential. I would suggset that you have a greater impact on what you achieve than the college you attend. Studies that I have seen have indicated that the reputation of the school you attend has no correlation with your lifetime earnings. Take the scholarship.

Dean E · Post by **Dean E** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:37 am

For undergrad work, attend an economical school, living at home if necessary. Get a job.

However, for graduate school, go to the most highly rated school that will accept you.

WoodSheddin · Post by **WoodSheddin** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:25 am

Lew wrote:Where you go to college will not impact your ability to get a job, especially in music.

I 100% disagree with that statement. Of course it matters. And putting off til graduate school, as someone else posted, to get into the higher quality musical environment is the wrong tactic. Grad school is not where to polish you professional abilities. It is a place to go when you have lost all your auditions to that point and are not ready to give up yet.

Finding a way to pay for college is tough, but I think you are totally approaching this situation logically. Do whatever you can to go to the most personally condusive environment possible. But realize that unfortunatelly reality does not always meet up with the ideal.

If you are able to somehow swing the more expensive option, which you believe to also be the better school for your goals, then make darned sure you earn every minute of that opportunity.

fpoon · Post by **fpoon** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:59 am

Josh, I would also say look at the schools overall academic reputation. Especially in other stuff you're interested in. Who know, you may not be a music major forever!

Other factors: which is in a cooler town, girl-guy ratio (CRUCIAL), which seems like it would be more fun, etc.

College is a time to just get an education (not job training) and at least to figure out who YOU are. Don't make the decision solely on which tuba teacher you like better.

P8822 · Post by **P8822** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:57 am

As an undergraduate student, do not get trapped into going to XYZ school for the name, teacher, or performing ensemble unless you believe that you will receive the best education. Your undergraduate degree will be what you make of it, you will have performing and studying opportunites at each and will be surronded by players that are more experienced. You will have to excel to prove yourself.

How much you get to play will ultimately be determined by you (aside from the politics of the school) by your personal dicipline in the practice room, always playing your best, and not showing up late (or hung over) to classes and lessons. Your relationship with the faculty and your colleagues in the tuba studio are all important parts of your education.

The advice you have already seen about taking a private lesson with each teacher is excellent and if you can arrange a lesson before your deadlines for your scholarship, then do it. Make sure one or both your parents attend the lesson(s). They need to feel connected which is an important part of the equation.

I know in my life it wasn't until my junior year in college when my college professor told my father I had potential as a performer in this business that my decision to be a music major was accepted. That was an important part of my education, too. It doesn't sound like your parents aren't supporting you, but their financial concern is important for you to recognize.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention the expense of attending college. As a college professor, I see students make mistakes all the time with their decisions regarding school choice. I don't recommend graduating undergrad school (or grad school for that matter) with $100K in loans. I hear about more and more students in all disicplines and majors spending this amount of money for a degree. There are not simply enough jobs and pay associated with music jobs to justify spending that much money.

We have all noticed the appointment of the Philadelphia Orchestra and hope to someday to qualify for a similar opportunity. However, Carol is exception to the rule, a very rare occurance. This does not mean you can't evolve in to a player of that caliber, but be realistic and work as hard as possible and good things will come about for you. Choosing a school is a difficult decision, but there isn't any school that can help a student who does not immerse themself in their studies.

Do not forget to take as many lessons form different people after your first year, as possible. Attend summer music camps and network with as many people as possible. You are always auditioning when people hear you play and they will remember your work ethic and connect to your desire. These people will also help in your future find jobs, opportunities, gigs etc. You will develop personal relationships which will help further your musical career.

Whatever college you choose, work hard. Do not assume that you will be given an education; ask questions, practice and learn all you can about music. Good luck.

Paul Weikle
Director fo Bands
Prorfessor of Low Brass
Florida Community College

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:55 pm

joshstanman wrote:Obviously, my parents are pushing for me to go where I can get paid to go to school. How do I convince them that the quality of the program is worth the money? IS a TTU music major worth more as a tuba player?

If you pay for it yourself, you can go anywhere you want. If they pay for it, they have a say. It's really that simple.

If you decide to pay for it yourself, there are several options. One is to borrow the money. Do you really want to embark on a high-risk career (music) with a hundred grand in debt hanging over your head? I hope not.

Another method is to work and go to school as you are able. It might take you more years, but there are lots and lots of people walking around on this planet who did just that. The key to the success of this approach is to avoid marriage and kids until you have the education behind you--they will absolutely take all your time beyond work. That's a tough call to make when the right woman comes along.

A third option is to join the military and use their benefits to help fund school. Wade described that already.

In looking at the music world, it would seem to me that pro gig opportunities for music students are directly correlated to who your teacher is. If you study with a big-name teacher, opportunities will be easier to come by. If you want a gig in the military, study with one of the teachers that seems to get a lot of students through military auditions. If you want an orchestra gig, then look at the schools where current orchestra pros have gone. Teacher connections are not trivial, and will help you get involved in the right summer music programs and local gigs.

The older you become, the less where you went to school will matter, and the more what you did after school will matter.

Another alternative is to attend a college studying whatever interests you, and then study tuba privately with a top-notch teacher. For that strategy, you find the teacher is has the name and who is willing to take you on, and then you look for a college in the same area. You might find a college that has an arrangement with the teacher in question, etc.

I also agree that an education is far more than a tuba teacher. I don't know a well-eduated person who is willing to work who can't make a good living for themselves and their families.

By the way, Wade speaks from experience few others have, as does Sean. Listen to them.

Rick "who thinks the military is hard to beat--if you're good enough" Denney

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:02 pm

chevy68chv wrote:Money might be an issue for your parents, and that is a pretty good offer you've been given. Try taking a lesson from their instructor and see how you like it before making a decision. If it doesn't go so well then you have even more ammo for convincing the parentals.

This is great advice, the sooner, the better. If they want you so bad, they'll make the time.

greatk82 · Post by **greatk82** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:07 pm

I agree with the idea of joining the Army Band for 3-4 years. You will be given education benefits of $4500 per year plus credits for Basic Training, the School of Music and most other schools you can attend while at your unit. The Army also offers free CLEP courses, so you can knock out alot of core classes which will free up your schedule and allow you more practice time while attending college full time. In addition, you will have the GI Bill to help pay for college. I wish that I would have used my time more wisely and CLEPed more classes. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to PM me.

TJ Kurczewski

ai698 · Post by **ai698** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:26 pm

Don't forget a National Guard Band in your area or where you want to go to school. Our state offers 100% tuition and a nice bonus of $7500 or more. You can go to school, get the GI Bill, and have a nice part time job playing your horn. Some don't want to do the full time, active duty stuff. You will have to go to basic and do the school of music for 4 weeks.

BTW, we have a person who went from our NG band to active duty. I won't tell you where he is, but he hates jumping out of airplanes.

greatk82 · Post by **greatk82** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:40 pm

The Army supply system has an ERC(equipment readiness code) for every item supplied to units and soldiers. Both an M16 and a tuba have an ERC of A meaning that when you step foot in a combat zone, you are required to have both with you. In practice though, occasionally you will have to put the tuba away and grab your weapon. During my first tour to Iraq, our band pulled perimeter security for the 4th Infantry Division's Division Main. Our 40 man unit pulled guard at 8 towers and the main gate at the presidential compound in Tikrit, Iraq. Our Comanding General slept soundly at night knowing that the only thing between the enemy and him on the front gate was a tuba player, a french horn player, a saxophonist and a eupher. After our 12 hour shift, we often had brass quintet rehearsals. We sat on the balcony of a 10,000 square foot marble palace looking over a man made lake surrounded by palm trees while practicing Ewald. We had performances called off due to too many incoming mortars. What I am explaining is the extreme of Army Band life, but I wouldn't change any of these experiences for anything in the world.

Carroll · Post by **Carroll** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:44 pm

I guess I should weigh in on this and even if I should not... I am as a parent, a TTU grad, and a teacher who is sending students to both Tech and MTSU. It is true that lots of military bands carry Tech grads on their rosters, but Gil Long is the pricipal tubist with the Nashville Symphony. Tech is a pretty small pond with lots of big fish, MTSU a larger pond and not so many whoppers. MTSU does the big time football band thing, not TTU. MTSU has more scholarship dough, more jazz clubs, more retail/food service opportunities, closer to Nashville, more private teaching prospects, more party temptations. Tech is a smaller campus in a smaller town with more rural charm, probably smarter women (it is a technological university), a well established - recording - travelling tuba/euphonium ensemble. Both top bands are fantastic. Tech does carry full time faculty on every orchestral instrument, MTSU uses adjunct faculty (Mr. Long, included).

Do take your folks with you and audition for both, tour the campus, go to the just off campus chinese buffet, and talk to some upperclassmen. Catch a wind ensemble/symphony band concert if you can... or at least a rehearsal. If they want, have them P.M. me.

tubajoe · Post by **tubajoe** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:50 pm

One thing to consider is the level of proficiency and vibrance of your ENVIRONMENT. Put yourself in a pool of the best players you can... as most only grow as much as those around them.

School studios are like petri dishes -- you want to be in one where the cultures grow FAST... it's a collaborative thing.

Avoid the safe easy route where you will be a big fish in a little pond, you wont grow as much and wont get as much result for that money you are spending... in 3 years, you might find yourself frustrated.

Also go somewhere that is in a city/area where art and culture are vibrant and supported... as many students stay around for a while after they are done with school.

Paying for school sucks, the huge price is evil-- and much of how it is presented nowadays is downright unfair and exclusionary. That being said, you get what you pay for.

Also, another factor -- if you go out of state to a state school, after a year or two often you can get residency status which may lower your tuition considerably -- and the schools will help you with this -- as they make more money (from the govt etc) from in state students than out of state. It probably varies state to state -- but talk to folks in the studios you are considering.

Maybe some profs can jump in on this... it's an important reoccurring topic that applies to many on this bbs.

Tubaguy56 · Post by **Tubaguy56** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:20 am

ah, here's how I convinced my parents, I said, ya know my band director that everyone hates and is totally incompetent? He didn't go to a good music school, thats why I need to go somewhere with a good program. I jest though, if you have a private teacher though, have them tell your parents you need to go to a good college, my teacher basically said he didn't have a whole lot left to teach me and told me to go far away, gee, I wonder why?

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:09 am

joshstanman wrote:I can't say that I'd be willing to risk my life for the ideals of someone else. Is there any way to buy plane tickets to a very remote island way in advance, with no time restrictions?

For what would you be willing to risk your life? I see kids risking their lives for all sorts of silly things, including using stronger drugs, driving way too fast and following other frightened drivers way too closely, drinking themselves into oblivion and then driving, shooting at each other because of the color of their sneakers, and so on. Those things are cutting short young lives at a vastly higher rate than any military action since World War II, yet kids seem quite willing to take those risks without due consideration.

The Army Band thing doesn't sound like a bad deal, though. Do you have to go through basic training? Are you at a heightened probability of having your tuba replaced with an M16?

It depends on your posting (and that depends on how good you are and the deal you make going in). In the Army, a musician is also a soldier, and yes you have to go through basic training (though that should not affect your decision--nearly anything on these shores can be endured for 13 weeks). Other branches are a little different. If you go that route, make sure you get the advice of those on Tubenet who have done so--they can help you avoid getting manipulated by a recruiting officer.

Rick "thinking that the Pledge of Allegiance is a statement of meshed ideals" Denney

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:43 am

A number of people have suggested joining a military band.

How realistic is it for a HS graduate to even get into a military band? It is my understanding that with all the budget cuts and reductions in bands, etc. even getting into a regular military band (as opposed to one of the "premier" service bands) is very difficult for a HS graduate.

Perhaps someone with this experience can tell a little about the realities of military auditions and the chances of a HS graduate getting into the military band program.

ken k

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:22 am

IÂ´m sure this wonÂ´t help you in your decision making.
Our band director is a tenorhornist with an Austrian Army Band. Apart from his musical service, he also does guard duties and basic training for recruits (to a large extent. the band consists of recruits doing their 9-months military service which (with an option to civil service in health care and other public facilities) is mandatory for young men over here.

In Germany, military musicians are part of the medical units and would serve as such in case of war. All personnel will have basic training and repetitive follow-ups during their career.

ai698 · Post by **ai698** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:59 am

the elephant wrote:The basic course at the SOM was always something like 24 or 26 weeks. When did it change to only four?

The Reserve Component AIT at the SOM is four weeks. They changed it last year from doing OJT with an Active Duty band. They schedule it during the summer only.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:53 am

WoodSheddin wrote:
Lew wrote:Where you go to college will not impact your ability to get a job, especially in music.
I 100% disagree with that statement. Of course it matters. And putting off til graduate school, as someone else posted, to get into the higher quality musical environment is the wrong tactic. Grad school is not where to polish you professional abilities. It is a place to go when you have lost all your auditions to that point and are not ready to give up yet.

Finding a way to pay for college is tough, but I think you are totally approaching this situation logically. Do whatever you can to go to the most personally condusive environment possible. But realize that unfortunatelly reality does not always meet up with the ideal.

If you are able to somehow swing the more expensive option, which you believe to also be the better school for your goals, then make darned sure you earn every minute of that opportunity.

I think my statement was too strongly worded. My intent was to say that the name of the school isn't what will get you the job, but the quality of the faculty is what matters. That is of course impacted by where you go to school, but some schools may not have the big name reputation, but may have faculty that will allow you to develop you full potential.

(Then again, I paid over $40K per year to send my daughter to Cornell because that's where she wanted to go to school, for art, which is not one of their better programs, even though she was offered $10K per year at other schools and nothing from Cornell. I had planned and saved for her college education and could afford it. Not everybody can.)

TubeNet

"Value" of an education.

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