Bb/F Euphonium?

sc_curtis · Post by **sc_curtis** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:04 am

How old are you?

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:42 am

I can show you stuff that Boosey, Hawkes, and Besson had published about 100 years ago about this same idea.

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:01 am

Exactly... The bore is not quite right... You would need a bigger mouthpiece for the timbre to be what it should be... You would then have a very puny sound... And the intonation would be something awful...

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:08 am

I donÂ´t think itÂ´s practical to think "F-euphonium" instead of "4-valve comp. euph".
After all, you donÂ´t think "G-euphonium, non-comp." when you happen to use the 3rd valve, neither.
I heard my brother comment on this subject when he switched from tenor trombone (without valves) to bass-trb. (2 valves).
He just learned to use "alternate slide placement" in combination with his valves and never thought of "re-keying" his instrument. He always plays a "Bb bass trombone".

sc_curtis · Post by **sc_curtis** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:08 am

The reason for the age question was whether to take this seriously or not. I would think a high schooler asking this question would be serious, as anyone in college or afterward would be making a joke, as in those guys from Eastman, I believe, who recently went on an over-extended frenzy of idiotic posts...

It seems that you may have read more into that than was intended.

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:34 am

So im guessing as a conclusion, you could play F horn music, but its not exactly what its for right? lol

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:26 am

The original post asks a good question, with some good logic. I will take his post to have been an honest one.

Although it is true that with the fourth valve depressed, one could play an F scale using Bb scale fingerings, it does not make it comparable to a French horn(F/Bb). The horn is known as a double horn. It actually has two sets of tubing. Check one out sometime. I believe back in the 80/s or so, there was an experimental double tuba. I saw it myself. It was quite heavy and didn't have the kinks worked out of it. It appears that a double tuba simply wasn't practical.

As to whether a euphonium could then play F tuba parts.... A euphonium can play F tuba parts without such a trick. It won't sound like an F tuba, but it can play the parts.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:38 am

TubaRay wrote:The original post asks a good question, with some good logic. I will take his post to have been an honest one.

Although it is true that with the fourth valve depressed, one could play an F scale using Bb scale fingerings, it does not make it comparable to a French horn(F/Bb). The horn is known as a double horn. It actually has two sets of tubing. Check one out sometime. I believe back in the 80/s or so, there was an experimental double tuba. I saw it myself. It was quite heavy and didn't have the kinks worked out of it. It appears that a double tuba simply wasn't practical.

As to whether a euphonium could then play F tuba parts.... A euphonium can play F tuba parts without such a trick. It won't sound like an F tuba, but it can play the parts.

French horns were also made with compensating systems at some point, and Besson made full double (enharmonic) euphoniums (and tubas) at one time. Compensating double horns never caught on, probably because full doubles gave a better solution with little added weight penalty, while full double euphoniums (and tubas) were rejected in favor of compensating, probably, at least in part, due to the weight penalty being so severe.

Dillon Music currrently has a "full double" Meinl Weston CC/F tuba for sale. I think it was an experiment that never quite worked out.

prototypedenNIS · Post by **prototypedenNIS** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:05 pm

Waht trombonists do to call their F attachments is to list the valve tuning. You can get bass bones with several sets of tubing or G attachments or pull to E setups on trombones...

a compensating euph is pretty standardized.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:16 pm

Yes, it is legitimate to call a euphonium with compensation tubing on the fourth valve a double tenor tuba in Bb and F. When you hold down the fourth valve, you indeed have a really small F tuba with three valves that should play as well in tune as any three-valve F tuba. The compensation tubing adds enough tubing to each valve branch to make it the same length as it would be on an F tuba.

In practice, it is not played that way, but it could be if you didn't mind the F side being rather stuffy and ineffective outside of the low register.

Rick "who thinks this is a reasonable observation even though it has been discussed several times before" Denney

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