french tubas

[LoyalTubist]

I see you only have two posts. There are a few threads on this site pertaining to the little French tuba in C. Check them out.

[iiipopes]

Wichita Band Instruments has a 6 valve Couesenon for sale:
http://www.wichitaband.com/used2.html

[LoyalTubist]

I admit, I was a little rude about replying to this question, at first, but you are asking a question that most of us have known the answer to for some time and, I realize, there are many players of all ages who have not been exposed to what some of us had to study in college and graduate school, or just by reading the, now defunct, Brass Bulletin.

The best way to describe the function of the little French tuba in C is one piece: the Maurice Ravel transcription of Modest Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. For most of the work, the tuba plays in the register we tuba players feel most comfortable. Some of it really gets low, but most is just right. And then, there is Bydlo. You can hear an excerpt of this movement by clicking on this sentence. As you listen, it's very high.

All of these tuba parts were intended to be played on one instrument, the little French tuba in C. Today, when the Ravel transcription of Pictures is played, a euphonium player is hired to do the Bydlo movement.

I hope this answers your questions.

Most tuba parts by French composers written from the late 19th century until the 1960s were usually intended to be played on the little French tuba in C.

[Rick Denney]

Today, when the Ravel transcription of Pictures is played, a euphonium player is hired to do the Bydlo movement.

That is probably true some of the time, but most of the time, the Bydlo part is either played by the tuba player on F tuba or euphonium, or by one of the trombone players on euphonium. Rarely is a specialist euphonium player hired, by my observation.

The French C tuba is about the same size as a euphonium, with about the same bell dimensions and about the same bore. I don't know what mouthpiece was intended to be used (by French players, not by others trying to figure the instrument out). I have never heard a live performance where this instrument was used, but I somehow doubt that it will produce the power needed to balance modern trombones are trumpets, which are far larger and played much more powerfully than when the French C tuba was in common use. Playing in the octave below the bottom of the bass clef would require combinations of four or five valves on that instrument, and surely all that smallish cylindrical tubing would push the timbre in the trombone direction. Plus, the players needed the bulk of their training in the use of the pedal register, where they spent most of their time.

We should remember that the euphonium (as it would now be called) was probably the instrument used in British and French orchestras following the ophicleide. The British orchestral F tuba was an upgrade in size and sound by comparison. The six-valved French C tuba was, I suspect, a modification needed to make the euphonium work throughout the literature. The Germans used an F tuba from the start, and apparently at least some American players used an Eb (of the small Distin variety) in the period following the use of the ophicleide. The contrabass tuba was a specialty instrument used in Germany, and then in America (which was influenced by the German tradition partly because of August Helleberg). I don't see any such trend of the use of contrabass tubas in England and France until much later. In the case of England, it was in the 60's or 70's when George Wall was using a BBb Alex kaisertuba and Fletcher started using a CC Holton. It was even later when Mel Culbertson first brought big contrabass tubas to French orchestras, and the CC found its way into French teaching along with the C tenor tuba.

Rick "thinking the C tenor tuba would be out of place with the typical 10-inch bell bass trombone with no leadpipe and a tuba mouthpiece as is now common in orchestras" Denney

[LoyalTubist]

I didn't say he was a specialist. I only said he/she was hired to play the part. I know... They wouldn't let me do it, when my orchestra played it. I played everything but Bydlo and someone else (a very quiet man, whose name we didn't know until after the last concert) was hired to do the part. That's my observation from playing it.

[imperialbari]

........ when the French C tuba was in common use. Playing in the octave below the bottom of the bass clef would require combinations of four or five valves on that instrument, and surely all that smallish cylindrical tubing would push the timbre in the trombone direction. Plus, the players needed the bulk of their training in the use of the pedal register, where they spent most of their time.

Rick, you may have hit right down on one of the rationales behind the then usage of the French C tuba. The French didn’t use bass trombones up until after WWII or even later. Debussy and Ravel set their orchestral scores with 3 tenor trombones.

Even if my 1870 Besson 3+1 Eb tuba after all is somewhat larger than the French C tuba, it shares one feature: a long portion of cylindrical tubing.

The combination of a relatively long portion of cylindrical tubing with a bell much larger than any bass trombone gives a warmer and rounder sound, but keeps an almost hornlike clarity, which the modern bombastophones cannot match.

My galleries hold quite a bit of material on French C tubas. Also some text translated from French into English by me:

You will have to join the respective gallery groups via these links:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... hotosXVII/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotosV/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotos62/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... PhotosXVI/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotos21/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... PhotosXIX/

Thumbnails of a Couesnon French tuba in C with 3+2 pistons:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... b2+pistons

Couesnon 1930 6 valve Monopole C tuba. (458KB). 3 Pics of a 1930 instrument and a page from a1912 catalogue. Silver plated tuba in C with six valves, signed "COUESNON / PARIS / MONOPOLE / CONSERVATOIRES / MADE IN FRANCE" Made c.1930. Height 62.0cm. Bell diameter 26.8cm. The "Monopole" brand is Couesnon's highest quality mark. This instrument was invented during the early years of the 20th century and was used in many orchestras and bands in Paris. (Based on low resolution scans by a third party):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... 0CTuba.pdf

Thumbnails: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... nch+C+tuba

Thumbnails of a Couesnon Monopole C French tuba 3+3P:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... uba+3%2b3P

Thumbnails of a Couesnon French C tuba 3+3 pistons:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... 2b3pistons

Thumbnails of a 1930 Couesnon French C tuba 3+3 pistons (different layout):
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... uba+3%2b3P

Pages illustrating fingerings and scales from a 1913 book on 6 and 5 valve versions of the Courtois French tuba in C. A commented attempt, by YM, to translate the history behind the development of the 6 valve version has been added (1551KB)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... 1913Bk.pdf

Thumbnail(-s) of a Courtois French C tuba 3+3P:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... 3%2b3P.jpg


Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[sloan]

...but most of the time, the Bydlo part is either played by the tuba player on F tuba or euphonium, or by one of the trombone players on euphonium. Rarely is a specialist euphonium player hired, by my observation.

Right. It's usually played by a local yokel who bought his euphonium at a yard sale.