gots a question

[Lew]

For some reason our band director decided that he wanted a tuba in the "stage" band in addition to the bass guitar. I was asked to join in my sophomore year (1971). I don't remember if the tuba parts came with the charts we played or if they were written out by the director, or if I was just given a copy of the bass parts. I seem to remember having tuba specific parts for most charts, but can't remember well enough to be sure. I do know that we played some J.J. Johnson pieces that had some great tuba lines, including one for which I won an "outstanding musicianship" award at the Ramapo Jazz Festival (where Don Butterfield was one of the judges, which is probably why they decided to give this to a tuba player) in 1972. Sadly that was the high point of my tuba playing career.

[Donn]

and also for a response to the big band playing obsession.... thats the kind of jazz i enjoy. perhaps that is from my director choosing stuff from ellington and miller and such, but it just seems (to me) that that is the true essense of jazz, thats where it all started. argue with me if you would like, but thats my opinion.

Big band is where big band started, but if you're talking about jazz in general, that goes back years before. One fairly popular way to look at it is that Louis Armstrong brought it to New York from New Orleans in 1924, and if you listen to early Armstrong it's not hard to believe that it could have all started there. And there's plenty of tuba in jazz scene up through the '30s.

Check it out. It's intense, virtuosic music, but personal and accessible, and it hasn't ever really faded away, though quality has suffered ("Dixieland" is short for "uninspired, superficial rendition of '30s jazz") Look up "Joe Tarto" for an example of a jazz tuba player of that era, though of course there were lots more.

[Donn]

Is this more "traditional jazz" snobbery?

Not really, I just say things like that to provoke a response. I love this music, and I don't think there's really any rule that applies to the names for it. It's just that ... maybe because it's so accessible and fun, and maybe as a natural limitation of tradition-bound musical forms, there are a lot of people kind of going through the motions, and it's easy to hear some Dixieland at a festival or something and think "hm, I'm not sure what Donn sees in this s*&." Of course, if you live in New Orleans or something you might have a different situation.

[windshieldbug]

Not really, I just say things like that to provoke a response. I love this music

[Steve Inman]

"Yes" (sort of).

Played in the Jr. HS jazz ensemble and COULD HAVE played in the HS jazz ensemble had I chosen to (as HS Wind Ensemble 1st chair).

I chose to pass the job to the other tubist in the wind ensemble, as I was splitting my time between tuba and guitar, with songleading opportunities at a local HS Bible study group.

Thirty years later, I'm still playing both intstruments in similar groups and am still enjoying both!

Cheers,

Steve Inman, who can be heard playing with/at such non-notable groups as:
Kokomo Chamber Brass
Delphi Brass Choir
Indiana University Kokomo - Howard County Community Concert Band
Highland Park Church (http://www.highlandpc.com/)
Redeemer Lutheran Church
Kokomo, IN

[adam0408]

I am of the opinion that tuba players are not often capable of producing a tone that is useful for jazz. Think about the typical instrumentation for a big band: all the instruments are pretty simple, and sound delivery is very direct. The sounds produced by these instruments seem easier to hear and "rock" with. I hope I am being clear.

The sound required for a lot of bebop charts and many other jazz charts as well is very "in your face" and intense. I think that ofentimes the tuba sound is too mellow and smooth for jazz. Don't get me wrong, I think that it is possible to play jazz on a tuba, it just has to be handled differently. I would compare the sound of a tuba to that of a flugelhorn.... much less capable of producing a direct tone. I think maybe the main reason it isnt done is just because it really hasn't been done recently.

[Dylan King]

We actually had three jazz bands in our high school. I played lead trombone in the "B" band and when needed played tuba with the "A" band, which was a practice period for me. It was great because I could practice or catch up on my homework during the "A" band period unless they needed a tuba, which was rare, and I got to get my jazz chops out on trombone the next hour.

I did the same thing at UCLA as well, but only remember playing tuba with their "A" band two times. Although those times were fun because one time was with Jeff Hamilton and the other time was with Roy Hargrove.

[Tom Mason]

There are some charts and styles that just demand a tuba, and some that just demand the upright or electric bass. Period. Then there are the gray areas...lol

I have enjoyed the opporunity to play with Al Pierson and Guy Lombardo's Royal Canadians from time to time, as Joe S. has as well. There are tunes in the book that dictate what is used. The band's leader also dictates what is to be used according to the situation (concert or dance). I made sure that I had and was ready to use both.

As far as more progressive be-bop or fusion, the question isn't if a player can get the notes, it is the sound and ability to play forever without breathing and air being the problem.

The bottom line is that I don't think tuba was what Coltrane had in mind when A Love Supreme was written, and upright or electric bass is equally out when playing most dixieland.

BTW, I was able to play tenor sax, bari sax, bass bone and bass at various times in H.S. jazz band.

Tom Mason

[Lew]

I am of the opinion that tuba players are not often capable of producing a tone that is useful for jazz. Think about the typical instrumentation for a big band: all the instruments are pretty simple, and sound delivery is very direct. The sounds produced by these instruments seem easier to hear and "rock" with. I hope I am being clear.

The sound required for a lot of bebop charts and many other jazz charts as well is very "in your face" and intense. I think that ofentimes the tuba sound is too mellow and smooth for jazz. Don't get me wrong, I think that it is possible to play jazz on a tuba, it just has to be handled differently. I would compare the sound of a tuba to that of a flugelhorn.... much less capable of producing a direct tone. I think maybe the main reason it isnt done is just because it really hasn't been done recently.

I respectfully strongly disagree with this statement. The use of tuba for Jazz goes back over 100 years. I think that in many cases tuba can provide a sound with more clarity than upright bass to provide stronger support of the bass line.

I have a book about Red Callender where he talks about his use of tuba in jazz groups and although he did also play bass, he preferred tuba. I also have an old LP of his with tuba playing the bass lines, and I think it provides a better balance than I have heard on many jazz trio recordings.

[dmmorris]

I played the bass bone part on a King BBb tuba. I only ocassionally played the Bass part as that was covered by an electric bass guitar.

[LoyalTubist]

I think the big motivating factor of how I got to play tuba in my high school jazz ensemble was a TV show: The Mancini Generation. It only played in 1972. The show had a group of Hollywood studio musicians, including Tommy Johnson on tuba.

I played with the group for my sophomore and junior years.

One thing that bothers me about the postings in this thread is the comment, "tubas don't work for jazz.." I think some players don't play jazz well, but you shouldn't condemn the instrument (and everyone who plays it) because you hear one person who can't cut the mustard.

[MartyNeilan]

One thing that bothers me about the postings in this thread is the comment, "tubas don't work for jazz.." I think some players don't play jazz well, but you shouldn't condemn the instrument (and everyone who plays it) because you hear one person who can't cut the mustard.

It is more a mater of timbre, and even of range. I try to play bass bone once a month in a pro bigband and the trombones need to sound as a section. Putting a tuba on the bottom changes that completely, unless it is a rare Kenton chart or something that requests it. Also, there is the range issue. Half the time bass bone plays in the basement - good tuba range. But, then there are the section unisons that might go up to a G or A above the staff. Dropping them 1 (or 2) octaves changes the whole character of the sound. Even if you could get a high school tubist who could comfortably play up there, the sound would be completely out of character and more than likely cut like a knife.

Yeah, tuba is great for improvising with a small combo - look at what some guys like Joe Murphy or TubaJoe are doing - my hat is off to them. But, don't piss off the local director who wants his jazz band to sound like the Maynard recordings he heard in high school. After all, I am sure a good flutist could easily fill in for the 1st trumpet part in a brass quintet - but would you want it??

[LoyalTubist]

Of course, this is all a matter of opinion. I don't buy it.

[MartyNeilan]

there are the section unisons that might go up to a G or A above the staff. Dropping them 1 (or 2) octaves changes the whole character of the sound. Even if you could get a high school tubist who could comfortably play up there, the sound would be completely out of character and more than likely cut like a knife.

Of course, this is all a matter of opinion.

The subject of this post is high school jazz bands.

Show me a few high school tubists who can comfortably play up to "Bydlo" Ab with a good sound and in tune without overpowering a section for an hour.

I could have spent all high school and college bucking the system, but I took the time top learn upright, e-bass, and bass trombone. That knowledge makes me a more versatile performer and teacher; I would lose a few grand a year if I had "stuck to my guns" and never picked up bass trombone. Hiring managers do not want an hour long lecture about why tuba is better when they are wanting to fill out a trombone section. Plus, I have gotten a number of classical and church gigs on trombone that would not have happened otherwise.

Oh, and in high school I did play tuba in a Dixieland band that played for such wannabes as Mike Dukakis. It was a great experience despite the political misgivings.

I did all my college jazz improv assignments on a 6/4 bellfront Martin and had fun, but in all honesty if I had honed my improv technique on bass trombone instead it would probably be of more benefit professionally. Yeah, I know the notes are the same, but there is the whole mental thing of slide versus valve going on when trying to improv.

Perhaps we will ultimately have to agree to disagree.
However, I would hate to limit the young musicians who read this board into thinking they can spend their whole life playing tuba in every genre without ever having to take doubling as a serious consideration.

[LoyalTubist]

I am not the one giving long lectures here. And in the world of entertainment, the managers, not the musicians, decide where there will be jobs. I never make speeches for people I want to hire me play. I might meet someone in a restaurant say he won't hire tuba players and all I can do is wince and let it go.

I had a teacher in school who played tuba who thought the tuba was limited and couldn't do anything. People offered him playing jobs because they wanted a tuba player. He didn't think a tuba was right for those jobs. You know who got those jobs? I did.

My feelings on the tuba do not depend on my analyzing my sounds, but just to play my best with what I have.