Uncut BBb

[Lew]

Because at one time there were few large CC tubas being made similar in design to the Chicago Yorks and every one wanted to sound like Arnold Jacobs, yet believed (and still believe) that you couldn't be a professional (in the US) and play a BBb tuba. The answer was to find those large tubas that were made that were similar to the Chicago Yorks and cut them to play in CC. Unfortunately it turned out that much of the time these fine BBb tubas ended up as mediocre CC tubas, usually due to many intonation quirks, but once cut it was too late without major, expensive surgery to return them to original condition. That combined with the availabiliity of many fine large piston valve factory CC tubas has significantly reduced the number of BBb tubas being emasculated, but it's too late for many.

[windshieldbug]

Also, I think that because BBb players had not yet developed a taste for the classic horns, and bought the new, cheaper than CC horns anyway, BBb tubas tubas that were being made (and also sounded very good)

[Alex C]

It's amazing how many BAT's (and how many parts of BAT's) I have seen in places like, music store, college and high school band storage areas.

I can name at least three schools where there are Holton tubas in cases, not being used (about 7 altogether). Not to say that the Holton BBb is the finest tuba ever made but it had it's sterling qualities.

In the "back room" of a music store I once saw the bodies of several BAT's. Years later when the owner died, when I got in touch with his widow... she said they'd sold it all for junk.

Others are being "hoarded", some ignored, some being played. Dillon's sold a York BBb BAT in the last couple of months.

So... I believe there are plenty around, they just have to be found.

While there are some fine tubas being made today that may rival the "classic" BAT's, I'd like to have played several of the restoration projects that Oberloh's has done (including my old Holton).

Hey, don't forget the 24J. That's a BAT that is still plentiful. If you want a lot of warm, fuzzy low sound, that's your horn.

[LoyalTubist]

I think the logical answer to this is a question...

Why is it more and more difficult to find a Ford Model A automobile with original parts?

[Matt Walters]

On my weekly visit to the TubeNet, I saw this post. I'll jump in with reason number four (4) why so many of the big BBb tubas get cut to CC instead of being restored as a BBb.

4) The typical BBb tuba player is cheap compared to the typical CC tuba player. That is not an insult to anyone playing BBb. It's just that they are used to paying less for their horn than the CC tuba player. The reason is that the majority of BBb tubas are still sold to the school systems who have to go for the lowest bid. And, schools won't bother returning a horn if there is a small acid bleed in the bell rim 2 months later because there already are about 10 dents by then. So, manufacturers don't mind a lower profit margin on horns that typically won't require as much hand holding and they can sell more of. So BBb players are spoiled.

I can tell you the actual work of cutting and retapering the branches of a old BBb to a CC is about a day's work. But for that 12 hours work, a person can ask thousands of dollars more as the CC players are willing to pay more. The work is in the restoring the old pile of junk, building up a valve section with all new tubing, crooks and braces. Then add in the time of making and fitting a new leadpipe plus a 5th valve with the goal of trying to make it look semi original instead of a home made project. (I learned my lesson on an old Holton project put together on the cheap.)
Regardless of it being CC or BBb, it will take the same time. That's assuming a typical 3 valve top action (which was most comon once upon a time) made into a 5 valve front action.

How many of you BBb players are willing to pay $18,000 for an out of tune BAT? I can think of a couple of new, out of tune CC tubas that sell in that price range, yet people still buy them. Supply and demand. There is a greater supply of people in the USA willing to pay in the $10K+ range for CC tubas than there are willing to pay those prices for a BBb.

Oh well. That's my two cents on that.

[windshieldbug]

That's my two cents on that.

But if you'd cut it to CC, it'd only have been $.002 worth, given the premium you could've charged for info...

[Rick Denney]

How many of you BBb players are willing to pay $18,000 for an out of tune BAT? I can think of a couple of new, out of tune CC tubas that sell in that price range, yet people still buy them. Supply and demand. There is a greater supply of people in the USA willing to pay in the $10K+ range for CC tubas than there are willing to pay those prices for a BBb.

Oh well. That's my two cents on that.

To add to Matt's real-world discussion, I would consider the case of my own Holton, which is still in BBb.

Unlike most BBb BAT's, this one has four valves and is already front-action. So, it already looks like a grand orchestral tuba and therefore requires less work to make a saleable CC conversion.

What would it take to convert it? It would require:

- an overhaul ($1000--this doesn't include finish or all of the assembly, of course)
- retapered branches ($2000--most of this isn't labor but paying the price of the small handful of masters who know how to do it right)
- additional 5th valve ($1000)
- overhauled valves ($500) or, as is often the case, new valves ($2000)
- finish work and silver plate ($1000)

These are very rough wholesale prices.

The market will bear about $9000 or perhaps $10,000 for a cut Holton, if it turns out good. I see $7000 in work put into it to get it to that condition. To that, you have to add the price of the original instrument.

In most cases, the converted instruments were unmarketable as a BBb. They were trashed top-action three-valve instruments that might get $1000 on eBay. Those instruments are good candidates for the conversion, and doing the conversion breathes new life into them.

But it doesn't make any financial sense to convert a good BBb instrument. My Holton, battered though it is, was too good to be converted. The price it fetched as a BBb tuba would already generate more profit, with FAR less risk and delay, than it would as a C tuba. You might sell the converted Holton for $9000, and earn $2000 gross profit. You as the dealer would share that with the guy who owned the carcass, and you might make $500 on the sale while he makes $1500. $500 profit on a $9000 sale? That's a margin of 6% with high risk.

But I paid close to $4500 for the Holton (that was the listed price when I bought it). The shop might get the same $500 with very little risk, for a margin of 12%. And the owner would get close to $4000, 2.5 times as much as he would have gotten with the converted instrument.

So, I don't think there is any worry that great BBb tubas will be converted to C on speculation (and what an owner does with his own tuba and money is his business). They are still worth too much as a Bb instrument. It's the junkers nobody wants anyway that get converted. As long as they are worth something as a Bb instrument, there will be fewer conversions.

How many converted Yorks have we seen recently? Not many. The reason is that York-mania has driven up the prices of Bb carcasses to the point where it doesn't make much business sense to make the conversion. If you can't get the carcass for under a couple of grand, the arithmetic turns unfavorable.

Rick "not worried about the loss of great Bb BAT's" Denney