Today, while I was practicing, I decided to buzz a little part of my etude through a rubber tube I use to make resistance. I then took my mouth off the mouthpiece, while continuing to breath, and I noticed that I my tongue was choking the air off about halfway through my mouth. I experimented a little bit with my embouchure, and I think I have found that it is partly the reason for the blockage. I was wondering if anybody, particularly someone who has gone through the same thing, would have any advice on how to correct this problem? I would really appreciate any comments.
Thanks,
Aaron "Tubafatness" Hynds
tongue positioning problem
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iiipopes
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pulseczar
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http://www.windsongpress.com/almost%20l ... 20live.htm
Download "the tongue."
One point he makes is that if we consciously pull our tongue down, then the other side will go up. But if we think a very big "aww," then our tongues will stay down? Watch the video. It's good.
Download "the tongue."
One point he makes is that if we consciously pull our tongue down, then the other side will go up. But if we think a very big "aww," then our tongues will stay down? Watch the video. It's good.
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XtremeEuph
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Dylan King
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I have the largest tongue of anyone I have ever seen. Really. It does make it difficult to tongue quickly, especially when double and triple tonguing, but over the years I have been able to make adjustments that work for me. Mainly I would work on articulations away from the horn, all the time. IN high school and college I found myself double and triple tonguing all the time in class, at work, swimming, working out, and around the campfire.
I'm pretty sure the trait is genetic, as my father also has an oversized tongue.
Of course the toughest part about having a huge tongue is avoiding biting it when eating. The best part, well, only the ladies know about that.
I'm pretty sure the trait is genetic, as my father also has an oversized tongue.
Of course the toughest part about having a huge tongue is avoiding biting it when eating. The best part, well, only the ladies know about that.
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imperialbari
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The "inner yawn" technique is what is taught in classical singing to maximise the head resonance. It also works well on all wind instruments.
I am not totally convinced, that it is a resonance matter. I rather think it is a matter of getting the biggest possible area of the square section of any point of the wind passage from throath through lips and at the same time avoiding sudden narrows, which will create turbulences. Such turbulences can be heard as out of tune overtones.
There is a mental trick, which is pure voodoo, as it has nothing to do with reality. However it works pretty well. I have had most of my students getting the idea right that way: let loose and feel, that the air lifts off the skin from the top of your skull!
There is a common problem about too large tongues. It is something about inefficient ligatures within the tongue. It expresses itself in speech impairments. I suffer from that condition myself. It gives me a slurred voice, when I attempt to speak English, my Danish is lower middle class despite my fairly high level of education, whereas my High German is very clearly spoken (I was trilingual before I was 2 years old. Danish, High and Low German).
However the tongue problems haven’t given me tonguing problems. They are about the tip of the tongue and the touch point as related to the register played in. Most tonguing should touch on the palate, but in very low ranges I may tongue directly on the inside of the upper lip. It is not a generally recognised technique, but for me it works. However then we are down around the double pedal of the Eb tuba. Once and only once I have gotten the double pedal on a BBb.
Oddly enough the lowest notes are easier on the smaller bore instruments. Possibly because they don’t eat as much air.
There also is the matter of body resonance, where Denis Wick is my guru. However, if you want to hear a very notable player using that technique, then listen to Sonny Rollins.
Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre
I am not totally convinced, that it is a resonance matter. I rather think it is a matter of getting the biggest possible area of the square section of any point of the wind passage from throath through lips and at the same time avoiding sudden narrows, which will create turbulences. Such turbulences can be heard as out of tune overtones.
There is a mental trick, which is pure voodoo, as it has nothing to do with reality. However it works pretty well. I have had most of my students getting the idea right that way: let loose and feel, that the air lifts off the skin from the top of your skull!
There is a common problem about too large tongues. It is something about inefficient ligatures within the tongue. It expresses itself in speech impairments. I suffer from that condition myself. It gives me a slurred voice, when I attempt to speak English, my Danish is lower middle class despite my fairly high level of education, whereas my High German is very clearly spoken (I was trilingual before I was 2 years old. Danish, High and Low German).
However the tongue problems haven’t given me tonguing problems. They are about the tip of the tongue and the touch point as related to the register played in. Most tonguing should touch on the palate, but in very low ranges I may tongue directly on the inside of the upper lip. It is not a generally recognised technique, but for me it works. However then we are down around the double pedal of the Eb tuba. Once and only once I have gotten the double pedal on a BBb.
Oddly enough the lowest notes are easier on the smaller bore instruments. Possibly because they don’t eat as much air.
There also is the matter of body resonance, where Denis Wick is my guru. However, if you want to hear a very notable player using that technique, then listen to Sonny Rollins.
Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre
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Dylan King
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I speak with no impediments whatsoever. I even do a number of voices and accents when I feel like being silly. The tongue isn't a problem. I worked as a police dispatcher in college and I was fast. But! I only speak English. English is my first and last language. I would guess if I spoke a few more languages, I'd be studdering around like a public school administrator.imperialbari wrote: There is a common problem about too large tongues. It is something about inefficient ligatures within the tongue. It expresses itself in speech impairments. I suffer from that condition myself. It gives me a slurred voice, when I attempt to speak English, my Danish is lower middle class despite my fairly high level of education, whereas my High German is very clearly spoken (I was trilingual before I was 2 years old. Danish, High and Low German).
Oddly enough the lowest notes are easier on the smaller bore instruments. Possibly because they don’t eat as much air.
There also is the matter of body resonance, where Denis Wick is my guru. However, if you want to hear a very notable player using that technique, then listen to Sonny Rollins.
Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre
Yes! The smaller the horn, the easier it is to play extreme low notes. I like to play so low that I'm just faking the vibrations with a light tonguing. People always dig-out on that.
What exactly do you mean by "body resonance"? Is it using ones own body to vibrate in sync with the horn? Is it for people with fillings in their teeth that resonates at a certain note around middle C? I can see it in Sonny Rollins, but still don't quite see it. I can feel the notes in my body as i play, but does the audience hear this? I think I'm a little confused, but I can dig it, man.
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tubajoe
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I too suffer from a big tongue... it was a hinderance for a long time - (until Mr Jacobs straightened me out)
When I was younger, it caused me articulate low, between the lips and I had all sorts of valsalva/glottal/pressure issues related to this... (but it did give me the ability to play REALLY LOUD)
The biggest thing in dealing with the issue was UNDERSTANDING the tongue (see the AJ videos from Brian's site, then read "Song and Wind" then watch the videos again and again, and then read some and so on...)
Part of the solution was realizing that there are basically two parts of the tongue: the back and the front.
The front/tip is the ONLY part you articulate with, while leaving the back as DOWN and flat as possible at all times, creating as large of a throat opening as possible.
(insert the "Kee - Ho" excercise here)
As for how to model the front/tip say: "TittyTittyTittyTitty" (yes I said it) and notice how ONLY the tip of the tongue is shaped. Use that for the tip.
Now use the syllable HO to model the rear of the the tongue. Notice how it is flat and your throat is open.
(seriously... no entendres implied...honest!)
Put those models together -- articulating with just the pointed tip, with the back as low and open as possible.
Avoid "resistance" training -- that is only going to create issues, rather than solve them. Resistance causes you to play by "feel", which you dont want -- you want the pressure to be at a minimum.
Better to use a mouthpiece ring (aka visualizer) as there is NO resistance, you simply CANNOT articulate the hammer-tongue pressure way.
With younger students when I run across this, I tell them to "turn the back of their tongue off -- put it out of commision" and leave it flat and the throat open and only use the tip for articulation.
A big tongue and things like resistance training can automatically teach a student to FAR overarticulate and learn all sorts of crazy habits. Overarticulation and pressure can be security blankets of sorts.
Dealing with the tongue can be tricky -- as we all speak differently and we use the tongue when we play in a similar manner to how we speak -- it can be a big variable...
So...
Use it very sparingly, and once you create the correct habit of getting it out of the way, then use it like you would in singing -- but sparingly -- just to shape the beginning of notes to your desire, not to initiate anything. Use it in a musical fashion, and like the embochure, dont over-analyze it... it is FAR secondary to the WIND that is powering everything.
Taking a lesson from a local pro will probably clear this up in a hurry for you. It takes some patience in your practice to get things straightened out. But once you do, you may find out that you have ALL SORTS of agility one the horn that you never knew you had.
joe
When I was younger, it caused me articulate low, between the lips and I had all sorts of valsalva/glottal/pressure issues related to this... (but it did give me the ability to play REALLY LOUD)
The biggest thing in dealing with the issue was UNDERSTANDING the tongue (see the AJ videos from Brian's site, then read "Song and Wind" then watch the videos again and again, and then read some and so on...)
Part of the solution was realizing that there are basically two parts of the tongue: the back and the front.
The front/tip is the ONLY part you articulate with, while leaving the back as DOWN and flat as possible at all times, creating as large of a throat opening as possible.
(insert the "Kee - Ho" excercise here)
As for how to model the front/tip say: "TittyTittyTittyTitty" (yes I said it) and notice how ONLY the tip of the tongue is shaped. Use that for the tip.
Now use the syllable HO to model the rear of the the tongue. Notice how it is flat and your throat is open.
(seriously... no entendres implied...honest!)
Put those models together -- articulating with just the pointed tip, with the back as low and open as possible.
Avoid "resistance" training -- that is only going to create issues, rather than solve them. Resistance causes you to play by "feel", which you dont want -- you want the pressure to be at a minimum.
Better to use a mouthpiece ring (aka visualizer) as there is NO resistance, you simply CANNOT articulate the hammer-tongue pressure way.
With younger students when I run across this, I tell them to "turn the back of their tongue off -- put it out of commision" and leave it flat and the throat open and only use the tip for articulation.
A big tongue and things like resistance training can automatically teach a student to FAR overarticulate and learn all sorts of crazy habits. Overarticulation and pressure can be security blankets of sorts.
Dealing with the tongue can be tricky -- as we all speak differently and we use the tongue when we play in a similar manner to how we speak -- it can be a big variable...
So...
Use it very sparingly, and once you create the correct habit of getting it out of the way, then use it like you would in singing -- but sparingly -- just to shape the beginning of notes to your desire, not to initiate anything. Use it in a musical fashion, and like the embochure, dont over-analyze it... it is FAR secondary to the WIND that is powering everything.
Taking a lesson from a local pro will probably clear this up in a hurry for you. It takes some patience in your practice to get things straightened out. But once you do, you may find out that you have ALL SORTS of agility one the horn that you never knew you had.
joe