Why no F Sousaphones?

[LoyalTubist]

I don't know if you have noticed, but F tubas are a rarity in the United States. I think if there were a demand, there would be at least one F sousaphone. There were no CC sousaphones until a few years after I graduated from high school (late 1970s-early 1980s). You don't see many of them. I think it's strange that it's hard to find an Eb sousaphone.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Why are there not any Sousaphones keyed in F with the exception of that Indian made POS?

Amati makes one (also one in CC):

http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... phones.htm

[Rick Denney]

Why are there not any Sousaphones keyed in F with the exception of that Indian made POS?

Sousaphones are an American thing. F tubas are a German thing. The people who borrow from the German F tuba tradition in America are typical not sousaphone players for the sorts of things they use F tuba for.

Rick "who wouldn't have minded an F helicon at one time" Denney

[tubeast]

In eastern Europe, F helicons have been in use (check out Romanian Gipsy band "Fanfare Ciocarlia", their tubists use both BBb and F helicon).
I´d think the sousaphone is used for its showy looks and maybe some sound projection features.
From what I see on the picture of Mr. Self, a toy sousaphone (i.e. F-horn) looks ridiculous rather than impressive.

[Lee Stofer]

The sousaphone-shaped alto horns are a cute novelty (I've even seen one in the window at the Thein shop in Germany), but Mr. Self's instrument in F is a real player. I understand that Mr. Stewart dubbed it the "Selfone".

If there were professional civilian marching bands in the US today, there would be a distinct possibility that CC- and F-sousaphones would be in production. Military bands and school bands want to pay no more than is absolutely necessary for their sousaphones, and it is cheaper to continue to build BBb sousaphones than to do the R & D required to build good F- and CC sousaphones. Furthermore, BBb and Eb tubas are generally easier to play in-tune than CC and F tubas, and most of the march repertoire is in flat keys, so there is practically no incentive or benefit to be had by building something new when what is available works well.

[windshieldbug]

Who is making CC sousaphones? Seriously, no sarcasm is implied I am just curious as to who is making these beasts. I Googled CC Sousaphone and came up with zilch.

That may be, but Zilch had to do their own R&D work... even the Euro helicon makers wouldn't help!

[Dan Schultz]

.... I think it's strange that it's hard to find an Eb sousaphone.

I don't understand. There are lots of Eb sousas, but no one wants them.

If you are talking about four pistons Eb sousas... well... several that I have had are in the hands of collectors, have been made into CC sousas, or have had the valvesets harvested to build CC tubas.

School systems have loads of Eb sousas from the 50's & 60's... many of them in great condition since they were put aside for BBb sousas. I think modern band directors are making a big mistake not using the Eb tubas/sousas. I'll NEVER regret having started on Eb tuba back in 1955.

[iiipopes]

Dan, I agree. Instead of the puny BBb tubas built supposedly for entry level, I wish the manufacturers would go back to making decent Eb tubas for middle school band.

[Chuck(G)]

"Professional F sousaphones?"

5 valves at a minimum and 6 preferred? Makes a 3-valve BBb sousie look downright user-friendly!

[windshieldbug]

"Professional F sousaphones?"
5 valves at a minimum and 6 preferred? Makes a 3-valve BBb sousie look downright user-friendly!

As if anyone cared that even a BBb sousaphone was in tune...

(but look at the bright side- the fact that they don't need Eb's any more probably is an indication that they are able to recruit kids AS tuba players; they don't need to just draft trumpet players who can't cut it... )

[GC]

Cerveny makes helicons in BBb, Eb, and F. Not the same as a sousaphone, but . . .

http://www.dillonmusic.com/cerveny_sous ... hones.html

[iiipopes]

As if anyone cared that even a BBb sousaphone was in tune...

As a matter of fact, with the "false pedals" in tune giving me all the way down to contra C, and having converted the top loop of my 1st valve slide into an adjustable slide that lays perfectly for the left hand, my souzy is indeed in tune! Just pull the 3rd slide so 23 is in tune or a couple of cents flat so that all the multivalve combinations only need a slight pull on 1st. And with a 24 inch bell and a Helleburg style mpc, it is downright tubesque when I need it to be, or with a Bach 18 style with a rounded cup I can project to the next county outdoors if I have to.

[iiipopes]

Look around. F tubas come in all bores from .689 or smaller to .827 or larger. The extra valves are not "necessary," but depending on the particular passage, they are very helpful with intonation.

Come on, guys: the total length of an F instrument is around twelve feet. By the time you wrap it around and stick it up over your head, there's just not enough wrap to make it comfortable.

Also, this is really a thread borne of not understanding the history of the development of the tuba. F tubas were the first tubas in continental Europe, by Wieprecht and Moritz for the Prussian army, and later Cerveny. So Europe has had a tradition of F tubas from the very beginning of tubas @ 1830. BBb came later.

Sousaphones start with Sousa and J. W. Pepper in the 1890's, with military/concert bands, who can trace their origins along a varied path to, among other sources for tubas and euphs, Sax's horns which were pitched in Eb as well as, also later, BBb. So since the standard instruments in bands, concert or brass, are Eb and BBb, it made sense to try to make sousaphones in those two keys. Europe always marched with tubas instead of sousaphones, so never developed the wearable version in F, as it was small enough that it was not uncomfortable to carry.

[Ace]

Kevin Hendrick has already posted above that Amati makes F sousaphones.

Another source for F sousaphones is ORSI in Italy. They make three and four valve models in F.

http://www.orsi-wind-instruments.it/brass_list.htm

SOUSAPHONES

Lacquered, complete with mouthpiece and lyre.

Code Tonality Description
SU-248F F Sousaphone 4 piston valves
SU-247F F Sousaphone 3piston valves
SU-248M Eb Sousaphone 4 piston valves
SU-247M Eb Sousaphone 3piston valves
SU-251
Bb Sousaphone 4 piston valves
SU-250 Bb Sousaphone 3 piston valves
SU-236SB Bb Bariton Sousaphone 3piston valves

[iiipopes]

Yes, I've known about the referenced F sousaphones for years. I'm talking about real sousaphones that can actually be played fairly in tune and will last more than one marching season.

[LoyalTubist]

First of all, I am not in Indiana. I am in California. Eb sousaphones abound east of the Mississippi River and at Masonic Lodges in Texas. I don't know why.

Mirafone made CC sousaphones during a limited period just before they moved their operations from Santa Clarita (Valencia), California, to San Antonio, Texas. You can check back issues of The Instrumentalist Magazine for details.

When I made the remark about Eb sousaphones, I checked and only Besson was on my list of current manufacterers. Which means no one is making them now...

[LoyalTubist]

I thought the Mirafone CC sousaphone I tried at a convention way back when was the best sousaphone I ever played.

[iiipopes]

...the ubiquitous Conn and King sousaphones...

There are 4 reasons why they are ubiquitous:
1) best tone
2) best playing
3) most durable
4) easiest to fix

Band instrument companies do not experiment much now. But if you look into the century plus history of these two companies, at least pre-cyborg for King and pre-Texas for Conn, and definitely before WWII for both of them, you will find that they experimented with a lot of offerings of "unique" instruments that did not go anywhere. So if there was even a single thought that a viable F sousaphone had any chance of selling, especially in the early days of recording technology, then between each company's respective founding and WWII one or both would have tried it.

[windshieldbug]

Where could you find vocalists who could sing and march at the same time?

[LoyalTubist]

Touché!