Beta-Blockers

[ParLawGod]

My fiancee is currently writing a paper on Beta-Blockers and would like to incorporate a poll (of brass players) into her research so she can make a graph. She would very much appreciate any help you could give her.

When answering the poll it would be great if you could respond to this thread with:

1) Location (country)
2) Age
3) Instrument
4) If yes, do you recommend them to students with performance anxiety?
5) If yes, why do you keep using them or do not keep using them?

Oh, she will not use any names without permission.

Here is a webpage on Beta-Blockers if you do not know what they are:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/BetaBlox.html

Thank you, your responses are very much appreciated.

[XtremeEuph]

heh Maybe ill live on "Beta Blocker" pills...........meh ( I hate pills)

I never did get my breathing problem 100% sorted out and yes i was stubborn and waited it out,.....about 15% progress over a long time. And im noticing extremely powerful and irregular heartbeats/pains. Making a doctor appointment ASAP.


But as for your polll.................................................sorry I couldnt give you any info.

[Lee Jacobs]

1. USA
2. 22
3. tuba
4. In extreme cases, probably
5. I tried one once before a performance just for the sake of trying them. I took one from one of my friends who used them often. I don't really have many problems with nerves, but I thought it couldn't hurt to try it once. They didn't make any difference that I could notice.

[Chuck(G)]

I assume you mean as a treatment for adrenaline-produced performance anxiety and not for their intended purpose of controlling hypertension, arrythmias and as a treatment for congestive heart failure.

However did we survive before the advent of modern chemistry, I wonder.

[tubatooter1940]

I never drink at home but when I gig on tuba a beer puts my brain in party mode.

[iiipopes]

My fiancee is currently writing a paper on Beta-Blockers and would like to incorporate a poll (of brass players) into her research so she can make a graph. She would very much appreciate any help you could give her.

When answering the poll it would be great if you could respond to this thread with:

1) Location (country)
2) Age
3) Instrument
4) If yes, do you recommend them to students with performance anxiety?
5) If yes, why do you keep using them or do not keep using them?

Oh, she will not use any names without permission.

Here is a webpage on Beta-Blockers if you do not know what they are:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/BetaBlox.html

Thank you, your responses are very much appreciated.

1. USA
2. 44
3. tuba and everything else brass as necessary, guitar and bass, keyboards for pleasure.
4. Not just no, but Hell No. That's absolutely the worst thing I can think of to use them for.
5. I have a genetic anti-thrombin III deficiency, compounded with a Leiden Factor V mutation. In other words, once I start clotting, I am prone to the clotting not stopping.

I spent a week at Christmas, 2004 flat on my back with my legs elevated with ever increasing doses of heparin and other medications to try to dissolve the clots in my legs. In the middle of all this, my EKG flattened out at the top of the sinus peak. So I was put on atenolol in case there was/to reduce probability of heart damage. All it did was screw up my metabolism and cause me to gain 30 pounds that I still cannot get rid of. It turns out my heart was smarter than all the physicians put together; when it sensed the pressure from the clot, it naturally slowed mid-sinus to keep from stressing or blowing a blood vessel. When the clot dissolved, my sinus rhythm returned to normal, including stress testing.

With the weight gain and such, I'm convinced that in some cases beta-blockers do more harm than good. So in my opinion using them merely as an anti-anxiety drug, when there are other classes of drugs to target the specific flight or fight chemicals, is worse than using steroids for athletic enhancement. I am also taking 225mg daily of Effexor for depression, and because the Effexor has some marginal effects on the dopamine and norepinephrin cycles as well as being a selective seratonin reuptake inhibitor, it has also helped my anxiety as well.

In the past I have taken other medications for the depression, including Serzone, Wellbutrin and Celexa, both singly and in combination, with the Wellbutrin in the morning and one of the other two in the evening. For me they were not as effective as the overall improvement with the Effexor. This may go onto a tangent, but I believe it would tie in with the anxiety in that the Wellbutrin kept me from being depressed at the expense of clamping the "top side" of the emotional spectrum as well, kind of like a compressor in a recording studio. The only side effect of the Effexor is libido.

In other words, I believe that to use beta blockers as an anti-anxiety is risking playing havoc with a person's cardiovascular regulation, and the performance anxiety should be treated instead with a combination of a mild conventional anti-anxiety medication in extreme cases, and in all cases be referred to psychological counseling to work through the anxiety, and to be referred for screening to see if there is an underlying condition, such as depression, which so often goes undiagnosed in high school and college, as being written off as the stress of the circumstances.

Please PM if you want my name or other information. This whole area is one I have more experience with than a person should have to.

[Dean E]

1) Location -- USA
2) Age -- 58
3) Instrument -- tuba
4) If yes, do you recommend them to students with performance anxiety? Never used
5) If yes, why do you keep using them or do not keep using them? Never used

[Mudman]

This is a charged topic like Mac vs PC, Guinness vs Pabst, abortion vs welfare, or local music store vs WWBW vs Ebay vs Bloke's Shop.

Many professional musicians will probably not go on record and admit to using beta blockers. Teachers with reputations on the line are possibly even less likely to talk about beta blockers. A flute teacher at Rhodes College lost her job after recommending that some of her students consult a doctor regarding inderal. Even if professionals decry the use of this medication, do they themselves use inderal? How would you know?

Anectdotal evidence suggests to me that instead of the 27% of musicians using beta blockers as cited in a popular study, the number is closer to 50% in some circles, for some occasions. (Evidenced by people opening up the pill bottles on gigs and through conversations with other professional musicians.)

One side of the argument holds that some people can be totally in control one moment, then have parts of their body start to shake uncontrollably with no apparent reason during specific performance situations. No amount of preparation, memorization, visualisation, or repeated conditioning through multiple concerto performances can help them overcome this seemingly random manifestiation of the fight or flight syndrome. As we all know, it is impossible to produce stable sounds when one's chops start to shake.

For people who have devoted their lives to making music, it is not an option to give up music simply because they may have problems delivering the goods in public.

In an audition situation, there is no room for the slightest flaw in one's playing. Many people use beta blockers during auditions for top ensembles.

Some articles suggest that beta blockers provide an unfair example to musicians. Not true as I see things. Some musicians have no problem with the uncontrollable release of excess adrenaline. Beta blockers even the playing field by eliminating the physical symptoms associated with too much adrenaline in one's system in the case of performers who suffer from performance anxiety.

The creation of Art (music) is not a competition, although winning a job may be competetive.

This is not something I would recommend to undergraduate students who have not already tried memorization, excessive preparation, conditioning through multiple performances or possibly even hypnotherapy. The fact is that many professionals have used this drug to positive results.

The drug is one of the safest on the market, literally safer than aspirin for most people. People who have heart conditions may take over 350mg daily, while musicians take between 5-20mg occasionally. Of course, a doctor should be consulted before anybody tries this medication.

We are all created differently and have vastly different psychological and physiological compositions. Figure out what works for you and follow your own path to success. A major study was conducted at the university I attended, giving me insight into the use of beta blockers among horn players. This study carries over to players of all brass instruments.

This post may sound like I am advocating the use of beta blockers. This is not the case. However, for some players, this will amount to the equalizer that will allow an individual to share their musical contribution with the public. For some players this will be worth the trip to the doctor.

We all know about the fallacy that great jazz players needed to use heroin to be able to play serious ****. Many jazz musicians fell into and continue to fall into this self-destructive trap. Beta blockers do not create altered mental states, instead they allow a maintained state of normalcy.

The other side of the argument is that all drugs suck and should be avoided unless totally necessary. (Not a straw man, but this post is long enough and if you are in this camp, you will have already made up your mind.)

The number of people who have won major jobs while using beta blockers is large. Unlike steroids, this medication does not give anybody an edge in ability on the competition. You can only play as good as you can play (in a relaxed state of mind.)

One side of the coin . . .

[Viggofonen]

1) Norway
2) 20
3) Tuba
4&5) Never used it.

[tubajoe]

Enderol was/is the thing in many pro symphonies... I've known players and conductors who swear by the stuff...

I've tried it, dont dig it. Did not do much for me.

[jdsalas]

1) Kentucky - USA
2) 29
3) Tuba/Euphonium & Bass
4) Have Never Used
5) I would'nt advise my students to take beta-blockers.

[corbasse]

1) Europe (Holland at the time of use..)
2) 35
3) French horn (at the time)
4) No
5) Used them once for an orchestra audition. Got the job.
Nowadays performance anxiety is not an issue for me anymore.

[GC]

1. USA
2. 54
3. Tuba, bass guitar
4. Yes, for self
5. Don't believe in taking medications for anything other than their stated uses, especially prescription meds. I take BP meds for my blood pressure because I would probably be dead without them. Forget other uses. Cultivate a peaceful attitude. Make it a point to get to a performance early; don't rush in late and wound up. Read; a good book does more to relax me before a performance than anything else.

[MaryAnn]

Of the many heated discussions I've seen on the topic, one thing stands out:

People who have never experienced the total, unpredictable, sudden incapacitation that occurs when excessive amounts of adrenalin kick in despite the best and continued efforts of the sufferer to have it be otherwise, are judgemental of those people who have found that beta blockers circumvent this reaction and allow them to function normally.

Similar to what I've recently run into from people who don't understand what embouchure dystonia is, and who tell the sufferer to just go work on technique, or perhaps they are not using enough air.

OK.

56
USA
horn
two or three times
I don't have students; but just last week I encouraged a friend who had an important audition to use them, as she had been very happy with results from them when she used them a couple times in the past. She decided to tough it out. She didn't make the second round. She is a very fine player who does well except in auditions. She's my age and has never done anything except play horn.

MA

[Chuck(G)]

Of the many heated discussions I've seen on the topic, one thing stands out:

People who have never experienced the total, unpredictable, sudden incapacitation that occurs when excessive amounts of adrenalin kick in despite the best and continued efforts of the sufferer to have it be otherwise, are judgemental of those people who have found that beta blockers circumvent this reaction and allow them to function normally.

Mary Ann, where does it stop?

If you find your mind drifting while counting rests, is Ritalin okay to help sharpen your concentration? Maybe albuterol to improve your breathing? A little marijuana to allow your "artistic" side to emerge? Maybe a little elective surgery on the ribcage to improve your lung capacity?

Is there really such a shortage of would-be performing professional musicians that we have to augment the supply by employing artificial means?

If you can't make it through an audition without medication to overcome your spiking adrenaline level, maybe you should consider another vocation.

Okay, have at me...

[Mark]

Mary Ann, where does it stop?

If you find your mind drifting while counting rests, is Ritalin okay to help sharpen your concentration? Maybe albuterol to improve your breathing? A little marijuana to allow your "artistic" side to emerge? Maybe a little elective surgery on the ribcage to improve your lung capacity?

Chuck's argument makes me think of Barry Bonds; but I guess he doesn't play tuba.

[Rick F]

1) Location - USA
2) Age - 59
3) Instrument - euphonium
4) If yes, do you recommend them to students with performance anxiety? No - I don't have any students.
5) If yes, why do you keep using them or do not keep using them? N/A

This past Saturday I had to play a solo in front of the band with guest conductor Maestro Loras Schissel directing. I normally get nervous before/during solos. This past Saturday I prayed about it, and ate 2 bananas during the afternoon (2 pm and 4 pm) and then skipped dinner. I was really relaxed, no dry mouth, and did pretty well. I did chip one of the high Bb's however.

[windshieldbug]

If you can't make it through an audition without medication to overcome your spiking adrenaline level, maybe you should consider another vocation.

Like accountancy?

[funkcicle]

. . .where does it stop?

If you find your mind drifting while counting rests, is Ritalin okay to help sharpen your concentration? Maybe albuterol to improve your breathing? A little marijuana to allow your "artistic" side to emerge? Maybe a little elective surgery on the ribcage to improve your lung capacity?

I'd probably draw the line at elective surgery, but that's just me

What about a few beers before a gig though? That's been a pretty common occurence for hundreds of years now, I don't see how it's any different.

I've never taken beta-blockers but I was prescribed Xanax when I started experiencing increased anxiety and almost inexplicable panic attacks after a physical assault on me in 2002. In performance scenarios, the anxiety would manifest itself whenever I was playing in a new setting. For bar gigs I can generally overcome this with 2 or 3 beers which doesn't seem to have a negative impact on my playing. There are many performance scenarios where a few beers might be less than appropriate though(for example, when I do shows and clinics for middle-schoolers), and that's why the doc gave me xanax.

Those are 2 methods that work for me in overcoming performance anxiety(that I had never experienced before 2002). One is a beverage and one is a pill, both achieve essentially the same thing, and I don't think anyone could make the argument that either drug is a "performance enhancer".. based on what I've read, I don't see how beta blockers are any different..

We all know about the fallacy that great jazz players needed to use heroin to be able to play serious ****. Many jazz musicians fell into and continue to fall into this self-destructive trap. Beta blockers do not create altered mental states, instead they allow a maintained state of normalcy.

[Donn]

Mary Ann, where does it stop?

If you find your mind drifting while counting rests, is Ritalin okay to help sharpen your concentration? Maybe albuterol to improve your breathing? A little marijuana to allow your "artistic" side to emerge? Maybe a little elective surgery on the ribcage to improve your lung capacity?

Chuck's argument makes me think of Barry Bonds; but I guess he doesn't play tuba.

Right. From where I'm sitting, sports are about winning and losing, and "fair" and "cheating" are naturally important issues. Music is about ... uh, what is art, anyway? but winning and losing is at most side issue. If there's a problem with drugs, it's the same as the usual problem with drugs - steroids make you mean, amphetamines make you crazy, opiates string you out, alcohol rots your brain and liver, etc. Don't know about beta blockers.

About that surgery, anyone ever have their teeth straightened? I have these two snaggle teeth that poke out a bit in front, and have wondered what they do to my embouchure - can't be good.