Valve Felts

BopEuph · Post by **BopEuph** » Tue May 16, 2006 11:36 am

Is there an online place where I can order a set of felts for my Willson 2900? The local guys here keep saying that a felt's a felt, and friends of mine say they are having trouble ordering through their music shops as well. Any ideas?

Nick

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue May 16, 2006 11:48 am

BopEuph wrote:Is there an online place where I can order a set of felts for my Willson 2900? The local guys here keep saying that a felt's a felt, and friends of mine say they are having trouble ordering through their music shops as well. Any ideas?

Nick

If you'll measure them, you can order just about any kind of felt through Ferree's:

http://www.ferreestools.com/

Have you called DEG? They're the distributor in the US for Willson and very nice folks.

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:05 pm

question kinda relating to the topic, can the soft felts replace the cork type bumpers on a piston?....though noise is a variable, will the piston stay safe?

Rick F · Post by **Rick F** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:19 pm

XtremeEuph wrote:question kinda relating to the topic, can the soft felts replace the cork type bumpers on a piston?....though noise is a variable, will the piston stay safe?

I don't think you want to replace those corks with different felts. They're not just there for quiet operation of your valves but more importantly for valve port alignment. The alignment for each valve's port is adjusted by the thickness of the corks and felts... whether the valve is a rest (felt/cork under valve cap controls this) or depressed (flelt under finger button controls this).

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:41 pm

The corks and felts serve different functions, although they both contribute to both functions somewhat: the corks give the rough alignment and damp rebound, while the felts fine tune the alignments and damp noise.

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:14 pm

ok, well my 4th valve was missing a cork So i phoned the dealer and he accidentally sent me a felt, phoned him back today ( a few days later) and he said hed send me a cork........ can I still play ( I could always not use the 4th valve for a few days) ...if so would it be better to use the thick felt rather than nothing,, or just the 2 little pads.

DonnieMac · Post by **DonnieMac** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:23 pm

Ideally in a piston valve instrument the ports in the barrel and piston should align perfectly and present the intended smooth air passageway. This is desirable both for the piston's upstroke and downstroke. The valve port alignment is derermined ultimetly by the thickness of the upstroke felt (bumper) and the downstroke felt (bumper). Assuming the horn left the factory with perfect valve port alignment and the supplied felts thicknesses were 100% correct, what do you think happens after, say, 6 months playing on those felts? Of course the valve port alignments degrade as the felts degrade but the player hardly notices it, the changes being so subtle. Trumpet players spend a dollar to get the valve ports aligned and report there is an improvement in the horn's response. Tuba players, well I don't know, is there is a discernable difference with perfectly aligned valve ports? But I got the piston Hirs & Nirschl aligned anyway.

Kevin Hendrick · Post by **Kevin Hendrick** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:46 pm

DonnieMac wrote:Tuba players, well I don't know, is there is a discernable difference with perfectly aligned valve ports? But I got the piston Hirs & Nirschl aligned anyway.

There is indeed! Doesn't take much misalignment to be noticeable, especially if two or more valves are off. As you said, you can adjust to it, up to a point ... but when you notice it and correct it, the difference is well worth the effort!

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Tue May 16, 2006 8:17 pm

what are the symptoms of misalignment?.....and the answer to my previous question is still awaiting.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue May 16, 2006 8:24 pm

Yes, you can use two felts, or you can borrow a cork from one of these guys and slice off an appropriately-sized piece and use it until you get the real thing.

The problem with felt only is that the felt that sits on top of the piston tends to soak up oil and moisture faster and so degrades more quickly.

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Tue May 16, 2006 8:32 pm

what would happen if it were too thick? ..a.nd vice versa

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Tue May 16, 2006 9:00 pm

strange because I dont notice a difference without using the 4th valve lol

Kevin Hendrick · Post by **Kevin Hendrick** » Tue May 16, 2006 9:29 pm

XtremeEuph wrote:what are the symptoms of misalignment?

Fuzzy tone, pitches don't slot well ... you can still play the horn (until it gets really bad), but it's more work than it needs to be, and doesn't sound too good. Much better to fix the problem.

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Tue May 16, 2006 10:05 pm

A trumpet player friend of mine swears by the neoprene washers that Bob Reeves installs on top of trumpet valves when he does a valve alignment. He claims they are quiet, last a lot longer and don't crush throwing off the alignment over time.

Question... Why doesn't somebody make neoprene washers for tuba valves?

pulseczar · Post by **pulseczar** » Tue May 16, 2006 10:59 pm

Neoprene can't handle the abuse tubas get because of heavier springs/valves etc?

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:20 am

pulseczar wrote:Neoprene can't handle the abuse tubas get because of heavier springs/valves etc?

Then why is it that Reeves claims that they last longer on trumpet valves? If they can out perform felt on a trumpet then they should do better than felt on tubas too, right?

At least it makes sense ...

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:26 am

I suspect that neoprene produces a much "harder" stop when the piston returns to its rest position. Not serious on a valve-doesn't weigh-hardly-anything trumpet, but some serious mass on a tuba.

As an alternative, why not try some of Ferree's synthetic felt?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:30 am

If the felts are too thick, then if they are on the valve stem, you don't get alignment in the up position, and open notes are stuffy and have bad intonation. If they are too thick on the valve cap or finger button, then you cannot get the valve down enough to engage the valve fully, and the affected valve combinations are stuffy with bad intonation. The Eb I borrowed recently has that problem, to the point of needing replacement of the the wrongly supplied (after the originals disappeared) Conn-style deep set finger buttons with the appropriate flat top ones, and redoing the corks and felts accordingly.

A few months ago, my tech "optically aligned" my souzy valves. They ended up being as stuffy as an old matress pad. I looked at the stems, and the grooves in the stems did not line up with the tops of the valve cap nipples, as they are conventionally supposed to do. I went back to him, had him give me a supply of different thickness felts and corks, and aligned them myself accordingly so when the stems were up the grooves in the stems lined up with the top of the caps, and when down, there was just enough to get rid of the noisy "clank" when you pressed down the valves. The souzy is now as open and full as it can possibly be.

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Wed May 17, 2006 5:15 pm

kk .....but there wont be any damage to the piston itself with the wrong size ..right? ( still have to wait a day or 2 for the right cork)

pulseczar · Post by **pulseczar** » Wed May 17, 2006 5:51 pm

as long as there's no metal to metal contact

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