Horn Opinion Time: King 2341

TexTuba · Post by **TexTuba** » Thu May 18, 2006 7:55 pm

I'm no heavyweight, but you can look it up in the archive. This horn has been discussed quite a bit and you'll find good information. Personally, I think it's a good BBb tuba and I would have no problem buying one if I needed a horn. Good luck!!

Ralph

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:24 pm

IMOHO, the 3301's a fine instrument--exactly what did your teacher not like about it?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:59 pm

TubaTuck wrote:Chuck:
It was not the make of the instrument.

This horn is a rental instrument from Brook Mays and its in pretty tough shape.

His concern was based on the horn's condition and how that affected its playability.

Ah, okay I understand. While your teacher seems to like the 2341, what are your preferences? After all, you're the one spending the money...

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Thu May 18, 2006 11:12 pm

3301s are usually everybit as good as if not better than 2341s.they are definitely better constructed.your particular horn may be dogged out(scientific term).The 2341 is easy to play,but that should not be the only criteria for a new horn purchase.I really like the 2341,and own a 52j which is a close cousin.But don't jump too fast to spend money if you don't need to.Get the VMI looked at by a REAL repairman before you dump it.I think i remember you getting a VERY sweet deal on it? More free advice.......proceed with caution

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu May 18, 2006 11:28 pm

You won't get an unbiased opinion from Sloan. He owns a 2341.

You will get an ubiased opinion from me: I don't own one.

The new-style King 2341, if you get a good one, is the best 4/4 piston Bb tuba on the market. It has a rounder tone and a bigger sound than the 3301, and it is a little smaller bore and easier to play. And I really like the 3301.

But you must get a good one. A good one has a low F that really resonates, and the less-good examples I've tried are stuffy on the fourth valve. It's possible this is an issue of needed tweaking, at least in some instruments. The newer ones (starting with the second year, which was about three years ago) are more consistently excellent than the first year's batch. But they are made to accommodate a lower price point so you do have to be just a little careful.

There are few 4/4 Bb piston tubas I'd rank higher, and they include, say, the Boehm and Meinl Model 5500 Symphonic (long ago discontinued). But those often sell used for more than the King does new. And the King is easier to get good results from for guys like us.

The new King uses the same valve assembly as the old King, which its .679 bore, but it uses the outer branches and bell from an old Monster Eb Bass, as does the Conn 5xJ in CC. I think the King is better than the Conn except in construction quality. (Both are made in the same factory.)

Rick "who strongly endorses the King" Denney

GC · Post by GC » Fri May 19, 2006 12:14 am

I got rid of my King 2341 because of intonation issues. The open tones aren't bad at all, but the valve slides tend to be cut too long on some horns. I just got tired of fighting it. I have played a couple of later ones that were better, though.

Also, surprisingly for a horn that size, I found the priviledged tones difficult to manage.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri May 19, 2006 12:19 am

Rick Denney wrote:The new King uses the same valve assembly as the old King, which its .679 bore, but it uses the outer branches and bell from an old Monster Eb Bass, as does the Conn 5xJ in CC. I think the King is better than the Conn except in construction quality. (Both are made in the same factory.)

Maybe 0.687", Rick?

About that bell--I've wondered if that was really new tooling based on the York Eb bell, or it was merely a recycled King Monster Eb mandrel. The two bells are the same size on the bottom bow end and the same height. What makes me wonder is that the old York bells were 19+", but the King monster was 20"--the same size as the 2341 bell.

So, maybe the prototype used a York monster bell, but I suspect the production models are King design through and through.

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Fri May 19, 2006 12:29 am

I own a King 2341 and have played the 3301. Both are good horns for BBb and for the money. The 3301 I felt required more air and had a stuffy low compared to my King whose bottom plays as well as my 4/4 Rudy where as the 3301 felt more like my Besson New Standard.

I personally found the ergonomics of the King much better than the 3301 and the valve set on the 3301 felt a little awkward vs the King.
Fit and finish on the 3301 was way better than the King. While I have heard folks complain about the valves mine have been excellent. This horn was one of early examples of the new Kings, but it was picked out by Matt over at Dillon's and tweaked by him.

My 2341 plays very well in tune as did the 3301 I have played. The 2341 has a broader tone that I felt better supported a large group. The 3301 felt like it was half way between the King and say a Miraphone 186. The King also plays well in traditional jazz for me and I understand the fellow in the Dixie Power Trio and some other really excellent players are using them for small jazz groups as well.

Dollar for dollar I thought it was the best choice. Fit and finish could be
better but my first concern was the sound. Definitely worth a try out.
Good Luck!

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Fri May 19, 2006 5:42 am

UMI is no longer with us. The company is now, officially, Conn-Selmer and, besides those two brands, includes King, Benge, and Leblanc (Holton). The company is owned by the Steinway Piano Company.

Philip Jensen · Post by **Philip Jensen** » Fri May 19, 2006 10:26 am

If the new King is based on a Monster Eb, than that was based on an even earlier BBb. These are pictures of my Bb horn (~1913) versus the new King. When my parents rescued the horn from a junkyard it had no bottom bow guard. The repair shop simply ordered a guard for the new King and it fit perfectly. The two horns sound VERY similar. I am under the impression that at the time my horn was built either designs were heavily copied between the manufacturers or there was a lot of swapping of tooling going on (if not downright stenciling - i.e York = King for some horns - maybe with a few changes here and there)

As otheres have said, these can be very good horns - if you can find a well made one

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri May 19, 2006 1:32 pm

Philip Jensen wrote:If the new King is based on a Monster Eb, than that was based on an even earlier BBb. These are pictures of my Bb horn (~1913) versus the new King. When my parents rescued the horn from a junkyard it had no bottom bow guard. The repair shop simply ordered a guard for the new King and it fit perfectly. The two horns sound VERY similar. I am under the impression that at the time my horn was built either designs were heavily copied between the manufacturers or there was a lot of swapping of tooling going on (if not downright stenciling - i.e York = King for some horns - maybe with a few changes here and there)

As others have said, these can be very good horns - if you can find a well made one.

None of the above. In the early days, H. N. White hired Reynolds away from York so he could offer a complete range of valved instruments as well as the trombones he was developing with Thomas King. Reynolds, of course, later went off on his own, but that is a different story for a different thread.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri May 19, 2006 1:37 pm

LoyalTubist wrote:UMI is no longer with us. The company is now, officially, Conn-Selmer and, besides those two brands, includes King, Benge, and Leblanc (Holton). The company is owned by the Steinway Piano Company.

Otherwise known as the cyborg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri May 19, 2006 1:40 pm

iiipopes wrote:
Philip Jensen wrote:these can be very good horns - if you can find a well made one.
None of the above.

They aren't very good, or you can't find a well made one?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri May 19, 2006 10:05 pm

windshieldbug wrote:
iiipopes wrote:
Philip Jensen wrote:these can be very good horns - if you can find a well made one.
None of the above.
They aren't very good, or you can't find a well made one?

The "None of the above" was referring to Philip Jensen's speculation as to why the bottom bow purchased to fix one of his tubas fit so well, and why his York and his King sound similar. The common person involved, as set forth above, is Reynolds. It did not refer to the quality of King instruments in general, which I rate very highly, especially the pre-cyborg instruments.

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Sat May 20, 2006 4:56 pm

TubaTuck wrote:Cats:

The King 2341 is inbound!

Should arrive in about 4 or 5 days.

Bought it from Baltimore Brass. They only had two silvers in stock. Dave Fedderly played them both (Thanks, Rick Denney, for the suggestion) and picked one. He then said he "tweeked" it a little, packaged it up and its on it way.

I'll do a thorough side-by-side with the 3301 and will make arrangements for Marke Wolfe to play/evaluate this horn.

I was fortunate enough over a 10 year period to drive Corvettes (4 different cars) and, I tell you, I think I'm as excited about the arrival of this horn as I ever was about getting another Vette!

As the color on my wife's home pregnancy test changed from white to pink, I could literally see my 2001 Z06 evaporate into a lovely silver mist out in my driveway.

The Vettes are gone, probably never to return, but, by golly, she'll NEVER GET MY KING!!!!!! NEVER!!!!!

Thanks again, cats, as always for the very useful input.

I'll let you know when the new addition arrives.

Tuck

Congratulations - now all you need to do is to get the first dent to christen it and believe me that 20 inch bell sometimes feels like you're manuevering the Queen Mary in dock when you're going through doorways! The only horn I own that my Vette will hold is a trombone and even that doesn't fit well.

Fast cars like fast women don't seem to go together with tubas.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:26 pm

iiipopes wrote:The "None of the above" was referring to Philip Jensen's speculation as to why the bottom bow purchased to fix one of his tubas fit so well, and why his York and his King sound similar.

I was just kidding! (what a shock!

)

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Mon May 22, 2006 10:59 am

Good luck with the new horn. When I got back into playing after an 18 year hiatus I started on the old style (2-piece) King 2341. I found it a great horn to get back into shape on. When the new King 2341s (one piece) came out I bought one and have never found a BBb tuba that I found to play significantly better. I have owned a VMI 3302 (5 valve version of the 3301) and found the King to be a better player in tone, intonation, and response. I do find that the King slots very readily, the result being that there isn't as much room to lip notes and the false tones aren't easily attainable for me, but intonation on mine is spot on, so I never worried about these issues.

As others have mentioned, there does seem to be some variability among individual samples of this horn, so make sure to take full advantage of the trial period.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon May 22, 2006 1:47 pm

Hey Tubatuck: good luck! I hope you are as happy with your King as I have been with my Besson, and I am really enjoying my Besson!

trseaman · Post by **trseaman** » Fri May 26, 2006 5:00 pm

Hey Tuck,

I have praised my old 2341 for the past few years. It's been a good horn to me and we work well together. Today I had an opportunity to play a "new" 2341 at Anaheim Band. It played much like my old horn but had all the newer gadgets of the new horns. The valves (as you also mentioned) sounded a little clunky but there are work-arounds for that issue! Because I've been so comfortable with my old horn and since this new King was so similar, I wouldn't hesitate one second to buy a "new" 2341...

Good luck with yours!

Tim