Piston Valve Question/Problem

[jbeish]

Within the last 5 months, I had my horn "chem cleaned" and "serviced". Increasingly over this period of time, my 1st and 2nd valves have been sticking and are sluggish. About a month ago, I did the bath tub treatment and it was a quick fix for about 2 weeks and then started again. A well known professional tubist noticed the same problem during a lesson and took the valve out to check it out since he happens to also be a repairman. The valve felts were pounded down, the valve guides were worn and the valve casing part where the valve guide fits in was still dirty. The reason I am becoming more and more concerned is during a practice session, there is water gathering on the valve stem of only the 1st and 2nd valve, soaking the felt underneath the caps and the valve itself and it seems that the valves are becoming more and more sluggish and sticking more. Is this a common problem/occurance? If so, what can I do or tell my repairman to look at/fix?

Also, I would very much like to aquire neoprene "felts" for the instrument. I have heard that last a lot longer than traditional felts and require less alignments so if you know of a place that sells these, please pass it on to me.

Thanks for listening, stay classy.

Justin

[Dean E]

. . . . during a practice session, there is water gathering on the valve stem of only the 1st and 2nd valve, soaking the felt underneath the caps and the valve itself and it seems that the valves are becoming more and more sluggish and sticking more. Is this a common problem/occurance? If so, what can I do or tell my repairman to look at/fix? . . . .

Hi Justin,

Water. Piston valves are hollow and often have tiny drain/ventilation holes on the top and bottom surfaces. These holes may become plugged. Also, the corks and felts may be too large in diameter, covering and blocking the holes. Take a look.

Keys. I use an old brush (toothbrush, auto detailing brush, or brass gun cleaning brush) (and if necessary, Brasso or CLR) to clean all the crud out of the key's grooves in the valve casings. Worn or loose keys on the pistons should be replaced and fitted by a technician.

Sticking valves. The pistons could have been dropped, causing high spots or out-of-round conditions. A technician should be familiar with the various methods of adjusting sticky valves and valve casings.

[Chuck(G)]

You didn't say, but what are you using for valve lube? Some stuff, like Binak 495, if contaminated with petroleum oil, can get to be very stuggish indeed.

Just a thought...

[windshieldbug]

Dean,
Brasso is an abrasive "cleaner". I wouldn't use it on ANYTHING you don't want worn, especially around valves!

[Dean E]

Dean,
Brasso is an abrasive "cleaner". I wouldn't use it on ANYTHING you don't want worn, especially around valves!

You're absolutely correct. I was very summary in my post, and my explanation was not nearly detailed enough.

I would use Brasso liquid, with great care, only to wet and chemically loosen any interfering green or black scaly deposits on the closely fitting, sliding parts such as the longitudinal, valve-guide slot in a brass piston valve casing. Also, I might lightly use a machinst's scribe or a dental pick to aid in removing those deposits. The Brasso must be wiped away and flushed out.

Valve work is a job for pros with training and experience. I have several toolboxes full of machinists' hand tools, micrometers, gages, scrapers, jewelers' files, and, did I say dental picks?

I am not trained in instrument repair. However, I was formally trained and worked as a machinist, tool and die maker, machine repairman, mechanic, and tool designer starting at age seventeen in Peoria, Illinois. Most of that stopped after college and law school, and these days I'm a hobbyist only. I imagine that I'm like many of us, and like working on project horns as much as playing them.

[prototypedenNIS]

Dean,
Brasso is an abrasive "cleaner". I wouldn't use it on ANYTHING you don't want worn, especially around valves!

just to point out... valves are lapped before they leave factory... with a compund that is an abrasive.

brasso does not take off that much. Do I need to get the mythbusters on this?

[windshieldbug]

brasso does not take off that much. Do I need to get the mythbusters on this?

Then use it on your silver horn to shine it up...

[Ryan_Beucke]

Also, I would recommend oiling your valves generously every day with an oil that allows to pile it on (basically anything other than Alyson, space filler and Binak). This keeps the valves slick, and washes away gunk.

[iiipopes]

Also, I would recommend oiling your valves generously every day with an oil that allows to pile it on (basically anything other than Alyson, space filler and Binak). This keeps the valves slick, and washes away gunk.

Roche Thomas is a good oil for that, and a 16 oz bottle is less expensive than some of the high tech highly touted oils.

[prototypedenNIS]

brasso does not take off that much. Do I need to get the mythbusters on this?

Then use it on your silver horn to shine it up...

I have (silvo), occasionally. Although I would point out that I'm not a daily polishing OCD person and I rarely have reason to polish my euph, it's got the satin silver finish.
I also use silver polishing cloths, which also have an abrasive in them.

I have an old Doc Severinsen trumpet that is silver plated, I used silvo on it all the time from grade 8 to 4th year University. Still is 100% finish.

[windshieldbug]

While Silvo is supposed to be milder, I wouldn't use either on the outside of my horn (raw brass the exception), and certainly wouldn't encourage any but the most knowledgeable person to use it inside valves.

What the NAMIR says about WOODWIND instruments:
"Do not use liquid silver/brass cleaner (such as Brasso or Silvo) Brasso is too abrasive, both will enter the mechanism, to cause wear or sticking keys"

And mythbusters will burn YOU, because I know firsthand the effects of using brasso too enthusiastically on plated surfaces (fortunately, not on anything irreplacable) when much younger. Which is exactly what it looks like happened to the valve casing here:

[pulseczar]

Is the problem fixed yet? You might also want to check the valve stems and make sure they're straight and not rubbinng against the top cap.