Rose brass for tubas?

[drewfus]

My Dad has a beautiful cornet that was built for him as a gift by his uncle who worked at Conn back in The Day. It is rose brass and silver throughout.

Has anyone ever seen a rose brass tuba? I think it would be a fantastic visual piece.

[Dave Hayami]

Many years ago, I played on a school horn at USC, a Mirafone 186 5V CC.
It was all rose brass. It was still in use at school after I bought my own horn, but was later stolen from the instrument locker room.
Another tuba major friend owns a different Mirafone 186 5V CC, his is all rose brass, but all of the valve cluster tubing(not just the slides) is nickel.
Both of these tubas were made in the mid 60's. I was told that they were both "proto-types" and were never put into production.(at that time)
Yes they both looked great and had/have a very different sound.
Dave Hayami

[Carroll]

Didn't the Holton Yammacopies have a rose brass finish?

[drewfus]

If I ever have the money.........maybe a custom job for myself.

Dad's cornet has nickeled valve casings, a nickeled leadpipe, and tuning slides. I haven't seen it in a while though, could be wrong on some of the details. Unfortunately, it will be a dark day when I bring it home to my house, but I will treasure it.

[GC]

I saw a 5/4 Rudy Meinl CC in rose at Lee Stofer's over a year ago. It was gorgeous.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Several of Cerveny's BBb models (as well as the 653 compact F) are available in rose brass:

http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... _Tubas.htm

[Chuck(G)]

...and Alexander at times has produced nickel-silver tubas.

[drewfus]

OK, then what IS rose brass, or red brass? Is it a finish or a separate type of brass alloy?

[drewfus]

The higher copper content is what I remember dad telling me about his horn.

The Cerveny's look stunning in the photos. I think I will start saving towards one of the compact models for ensemble work. Maybe the tuba snobs will respect me then.

[Tubaryan12]

do you mean something like this?



http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/ConnArticle20.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn12A1940image.html

[iiipopes]

OK, every foundry and company has its own particular recipe or formula for the copper/zinc ratio for what they call their grades of brass, but it generally is as follows, and the name of the alloy is because that is roughly what it looks like when polished out:
Yellow brass 70/30
Gold brass 80/20
Red or rose brass 90/10

The conventional wisdom is that the higher the copper content, the "warmer" or "darker" the horn will sound, all other things being equal. But, of course, there are so many variables in horn construction, it doesn't always work that way.

[iiipopes]

And they were called, "Coprion." Get it? "Copper Right On" or something like that. The mandrels were actually lowered into a large plating tank with huge blocks of pure copper, and when the electricity was applied, the copper formed up on the mandrels, instead of the traditional method of taking a piece of sheet brass or two and hammering/brazing/latheing it into form. Of course it was finished and polished after taking off the mandrel, but without all the metal stress of repeated reheatings along the way.

It's too bad Conn didn't make a flugel bell that way!

[drewfus]

do you mean something like this?

Yup. Just take that gold brass and turn it nickel.

Dad's horn was given to him in 1959 as a graduation present by my aforementioned great uncle (Gene Fisher if anyone cares to know) who worked at Conn. Complete with dad's name engraved on the bell.

When I am back in Iowa in the fall I will get some pictures of it. This post may be interesting again by then.

[windshieldbug]

E.K. Blessing CURRENTLY makes some extraordinarily nice-playing plating-formed copper bell flugel horns...professional models / 3 (with #3 trigger) valves or 4 valves / vertical slides / large .460" bore / VERY affordable pricing.

That's a very attractive sopranino tuba!

[Lew]

It's hard to tell from this photo, but this tuba was all rose brass:



I owned this about 5 years ago. It was labeled Styriaton, but was also marketed as the Conn International model 97J. It was actually a rose brass version of the Cerveny 686. It has a much redder look than the Miraphone gold brass horns I have seen. It also had nickel silver valve casings, ferrules, braces, and leadpipe. It made for a very striking looking horn. My wife used to call it either the pink tuba or the "pretty" tuba. Either way, although I liked the way it played, I decided that it took too much air for me to handle, with its 0.795" bore.

[Rick Denney]

The conventional wisdom is that the higher the copper content, the "warmer" or "darker" the horn will sound, all other things being equal.

I keep hearing this (so to speak), but I'm skeptical. I can't identify any differences in the mechanical properties of the three brass alloys that could reasonably affect the resonance of the air they contain, even subtly. There are some differences in yield strength, malleability, and ductility, perhaps, but those have no effect unless you are working at yield stress. The stiffness and density are the same.

But the Cerveny 701 I tried out at Dillon a few years ago was lovely, at least from a distance.

Rick "not going with convention on this one" Denney

[Cameron Gates]

[quote="Rick DenneyI keep hearing this (so to speak), but I'm skeptical. I can't identify any differences in the mechanical properties of the three brass alloys that could reasonably affect the resonance of the air they contain, even subtly. There are some differences in yield strength, malleability, and ductility, perhaps, but those have no effect unless you are working at yield stress. The stiffness and density are the same.

But the Cerveny 701 I tried out at Dillon a few years ago was lovely, at least from a distance.

Rick "not going with convention on this one" Denney[/quote]

Rick, gotta disagree. I am the first person to call BS on every gimick known to man. Really. However, after playing several Firebirds of both colors, I can say without question that the red ones (gold brass) are darker and less forgiving than the yellow ones. Garooooonteed.

[drewfus]

I think my goal in starting this thread has been achieved. Yes, rose brass tubas exist, and in Cerveny's case, apparently quite available.

I want one just because it has such a unique look. It will be my horn for ensemble work I think.

Interesting juxtaposition for me also, considering the posts over at the "Tuba Snob" thread. I care what my horns look like, that is why I replaced the ratty King with very straight and shiny Yamaha. I am normally a function over form type, you should see what I drive.

[Rick Denney]

Rick, gotta disagree. I am the first person to call BS on every gimick known to man. Really. However, after playing several Firebirds of both colors, I can say without question that the red ones (gold brass) are darker and less forgiving than the yellow ones. Garooooonteed.

I'm inclined to respect your perception over my science, but then I must ask (for someone to answer)...what is the science?

What properties of the materials have any effect, whether noticeable or not, on vibration? The impedance of the brass would seem to me to be affected by residual stress, mass, stiffness, and any external damping or attenuation. The mass is the product of thickness and the density. Density is identical between the various brasses. Stiffness is a property both of material stiffness and design (including thickness, bracing, shape, and so on). The difference in material stiffness between the brasses is zero, even though some are stronger than others.

Damping might result from the thicker lacquer coatings, and also from being held by such gooey creatures. But the lacquer would be the same, it would seem to me, comparing otherwise identical instruments. And Cameron is less gooey than most, and at least the same when testing both instruments.

Thus, if density, material stiffness, and any external damping are identical, they can't explain the difference in impedance. That leaves residual stress, thickness, bracing, and other design issues.

It really makes me wonder if Miraphone's shaping process leave more residual stress in the slightly stronger alloys--shaping requires working the material past its yield stress, and that leaves residual stresses unless it is annealed after working. Or if Miraphone's source of gold brass sheet is not exactly the same thickness as their yellow brass. Perhaps their working method leaves the stronger material a little thicker?

Rick "who would start with accurately weighing a representative sampling of both instruments" Denney

[iiipopes]

God, I hate sound bytes. That's why I added the second sentence. Not only on tuba is there just so much more volume it is hard to hear any difference, but the sheer weight and volume of the mechanism and all the joints, compared with a trumpet, cornet or flugel, all but wipe out any effect. Although rumor is that York used select sheets of red brass for their bells based on how the sheet rattled.

The conventional wisdom is that the higher the copper content, the "warmer" or "darker" the horn will sound, all other things being equal. But, of course, there are so many variables in horn construction, it doesn't always work that way.