Self Intonation

[XtremeEuph]

Maybe you guys can help me out with this....Ive been rambling about it for some time:

I am having trouble keeping consistent intonation with Myself. I will tune to my Bb (or any note for that matter) ..........then 2 seconds later i will just make sure and check again and Ill be 15 cents sharp or something. The pitch seems really touchy and I think it's my embouchure. I just cant keep it consistent So when Im playing a piece I dont know if im in tune, or 20 cents sharp

Anyway , any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks alot


Kevin

[quinterbourne]

The key is to play the note without looking at the tuner. Play the note, wait for the pitch to center, then check the pitch on the tuner. If you look at the tuner while playing, your face will do (unpredictable) things to bend the pitch of the note.

If that still doesn't work, try tuning to a static pitch instead. Many tuners and metronomes will play pitches for you (make sure it's at the right frequency, ie 440). The other option is to tune to a piano or keyboard (but the piano/keyboard needs to be in tune for this to work, of course).

Usually your pitch will rise as you are warming up your instrument. If you tune at the beginning of your session and tune again later, you may find yourself 10-20 cents sharper. Usually, if I don't have time for an extensive warmup, I will start rehearsals with my main slide in a fair bit, and gradually pull it out throughout the rehearsal.

Of course, nothing beats listening to the other players in the ensemble for pitch.

[Richard Murrow]

Kevin,

There is every possibility here that the problem is not embouchure, but ear. The (minds) ear is what has to be worked on daily. Obvious exercises are long tones, slow lip slurs, and slow scales (in ALL keys). Another very good remedy is to take simple tunes like Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star, Mary Had a Little Lamb, etc. and play them in ALL keys, by ear, DO NOT READ THEM. You should have a strong sense of how these tunes sound and going through them in all keys and registers not only helps you hear intervals better, it will also help you develop a stronger sense of key center and in a very short time you will begin to hear where tendencies are on your instrument. My suggestion is to not do these with the tuner for the first week or so. Add the tuner in the second week just as a reference,but don't use it constantly. You can't think of the intervals, tone and key center and the tuner also. The mind can only focus on one thing at a time. Do this daily for 3 weeks and you will see definite progress. As you do these tunes think always of the best, most beautiful, consistent, sound you can imagine.

[bighorn]

Hi, I don't think it is caused by your embouchure. You should control the sound to control the embouchure and not the other way. You must also be able to hear the sound in your head before u play and if u can hear it u sure can play it. The exercises suggested by Richard Murrow are very good, you should also buzz them on the mouthpiece while playing on a piano to make sure you get the pitches right.

[XtremeEuph]

Haha thats great advice all, I just started doing buzzing/piano and a few of those other ear training exercises right after I posted this, I guess I'm on the right track. Richard Murrow thanks for the advice with the tunes, ill give it a shot. I need to know all my keys/scales anyway

[Bandmaster]

Don't forget to work on your listening skills. I don't know how many times I have worked with someone to get their horn in tune, and no matter how far they pull or push the slide, the pitch doesn't change. You need to have the correct pitch in your head FIRST! If the pitch in your head is high you will subconsciously lip up to match the pitch your ear WANTS to hear.

I don't care how good you are, if you are distracted and not concentrating it can effect you. I play in a band with another tuba player that just got his doctorate in music, and sure enough, this very thing happened before a concert last week. He had pushed in his slide almost an inch and a half and he couldn't get up to pitch. As soon as I reminded him to relax and clear the "bad" sound out of his head, his pitch fell right into place.

Allow your embouchure to relax and let it produce a comfortable sound and allow the pitch to go where the horn wants to take it naturally, then adjust your slides to take the pitch to where it needs to be. But stay relaxed... Now once you start playing you will have to listen and adjust "problem" notes with your embouchure, but tune the horn while relaxed. Unfortunately no horn is perfectly in tune, as we all know.

[Ryan_Beucke]

What everyone else said

Long tones

Play everything in every key

Sing---> Buzz---> Play


Your ear is the problem, and it will get better the more you learn that pitch originates from the mouthpiece and then is amplified by the instrument with the right buttons down. Many beginning trumpet students aren't taught to kick out the slides for low Ds, so then when they do start using the slides, they still play them as sharp because they're hearing the pitch that way.

[MikeMason]

Another problem is, pitch is a constantly moving target.Playing with different groups and/or different keys can change everything.Living by the tuner can be pretty frustrating.Get out and play some music with some other people and learn to do it for real.Mr. Murrow,thanks for an excellent reply.Valuable stuff indeed.

[iiipopes]

Lip slurs. Don't forget lip slurs. Clean, precise lip slurs teach your embouchure where to stop in changing firmness as well as building strength in changing firmness, so you build stability there as well.

[ThomasP]

So I've decided to chime in because I'm battling this problem currently, and it had lead to a large conceptual change in my playing. The key to playing any note in tune regardless of how it's approached is muscle memory. A lot of vocalists will be able to sing a specific pitch if you name one, not because they have perfect pitch, but because they know what a(n) "(insert pitch here)" feels like.

I believe that it's due to muscle memory. Here's how I think one can attain the goal we both want.

1. learn what a pitch sounds like (mainly the characteristics of the sound), more importantly the Bb or C in my case.

2. Buzz that pitch a tremendous amount of time, be able to pick up your mouthpiece first thing in the morning and buzz the tuning note, not because you have perfect pitch, but you know where it is, and what it feels like.

A problem I've faced is any open note's intonation on my horn is dependant upon which direction it's approached from. For the past few years I've been playing in the area of a C and not playing a C.

I've thought long and hard on the subject and have my own thoughts that would take a long time to type, and I don't feel like getting carpal tunnel or any other ailment at the moment, so that's all for now

[iiipopes]

Hey Thomas P -- when you do feel like typing it out, even a section at a time, I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter. A couple of times I've picked up a CC tuba to try out, and if I quickly try to play the first open C, my body, instead of my brain, does something like, "Oh, you're going to play an open pitch in this area. So set your embouchure like this...," and out comes a dead duck sounding something trying to be a BBb instead of a CC, and I then have to adjust, think about the pitch and feel, and then proceed.

[iiipopes]

Hmm. The words "normal" and "strange" in the same sentence, and it's not a compound contrasting declaratory sentence. Hmm.

But you're right. I would like to ThomasP's observations and thoughts to compare with mine, as he may have some significant insight as to why it is so.

[ThomasP]

My thoughts can be boiled down to this:

The instrument you're playing is merely amplifying and beautifying the sound you're creating with your embouchure (with the assistance of your mouthpiece (I personally don't advocate "free buzzing")).

So ultimately I don't care if I'm playing BBb, CC, EEb, Eb, or F, if I'm playing a C right below the bass clef staff, my embouchure should be doing as close to the same thing on each instrument as possible. Resistance will be different, but when you take the mouthpiece away from the horn it should be the same note.

Disagree if you'd like...

[Rick Denney]

...and what it feels like.

"Play by sound, not by feel."

The point of Jacobs's advice was that feel phemomenon are tricky, unpredictable, and fickle. They will let you down when you least expect it. And when they do, you'll have no recourse.

Singers don't have good intonation because they know what the tension of their vocal chords feels like. I can hardly feel my vocal chords. They have good intonation because they know what the note sounds like, and they have sufficiently developed skills so that their subconscious will produce that sound if they provide the conceptual target.

When I studied art, my teachers told me not to draw with my fingers, but with my eyes.

Rick "noting that Jacobs thought solfege more important for intonation and musicality than embouchure training" Denney

[ThomasP]

I'm not completely speaking of "what it feels like" only. I suggest associating the sound along with the feeling.

A C below the staff has a certain sound characteristic when played precisely correct, associate that sound with what it feels like, in regards to the muscles in the lips, and this is to enable the player to duplicate that pitch more easily.

If you roll out of bed and haven't heard a single pitch from a piano, it's hard to play a note or sing a note and know if you're 10 cents flat or 10 cents sharp or in tune. At the end of my day after I've been surrounded by music, I can probably sing a C pretty close to where it needs to be.

Where I do believe that sound is extremely important is how Stephen Colley suggests learning Just Intonation, not knowing precisely how many cents to lower the pitch, but rather just know the characteristic of the sound...Another topic for another time.

I used to just tune nonchalantly, and depend on my ear to play in tune with the ensemble, but I've decided that I need more confidence in my own intonation, to benefit the ensemble I'm playing with.