Sticky Valve: Have I Forgotten Anything?

[iiipopes]

Make sure there's nothing on the valve or in the casing: a burr, sloppy flux or solder, plating/lacquer overspray, residue of lapping compound (especially in the knuckles connecting the casing to the valve slides) etc.

If it's absolutely clean, and you've re-oiled, etc., and it still sticks, a short visit to the tech to might be necessary to make sure the bores are true after the tuba's having been assembled and shipped: unobservable dings or knocks in transit, heat warpage of the bore during assembly, knuckle soldered too far in, etc.

[Chuck(G)]

Make sure that the slot the valve guide runs in is clean (use an old toothbrush).

[Dan Schultz]

Cats: On my new King the first valve is sticky.

If this is a NEW 'new' horn, you need to speak to wherever you bought it from before taking it to a shop or performing amatuer repair work.

meow

[Dan Schultz]

Called Dave Fedderly at Baltimore Brass..... Another example of Baltimore Brass' committment to doing business the right way: I am to send Dennis Houghton's invoice to Dave Fedderly for payment.

Ahhhh.... a classial problem placed into the hands of classical folks usually leads to a classical solution. Good move on your part and good luck with your horn.

[Art Hovey]

A couple of years ago I met a tubist with a brand-new King which had a sometimes-sticky first valve. I noticed that a brace on the first-valve tubing was unsoldered. Very slight flexing of the tubing resulted in a very slight distortion of the valve cylinder; we both agreed that that was the source of the problem.

[Dan Schultz]

.... the valves on this King are clanky. Just an honest appraisal for anyone considering this horn. Good news is that, it appears, with a little "aftermarket" work, they can be vastly improved.

It's a shame King (Conn-Selmer-Steinway) can't/won't put the extra hour into the horn in the first place!

[Dan Schultz]

... It would be a bit more than an hour, imo.

Well.... maybe a little more than an hour. However, A LOT can be done in an hour at the manufacturing level... a heck of a lot more than can be done in an hour AFTER the horn is fully assembled and finished. Heck, I doubt if the complete assembly time is much more than 8-10 labor hours.

[iiipopes]

Dan:

I think you'd have the best of both worlds is King would using the "big valve" set that VMI uses. Now, I KNOW they're not going to do this...just dreaming!

Tuck

Can anyone decipher my use of language here? I gotta stop drinking so early in the morning!

Tuck

The sad part: I was able to decipher what he was saying! I think that says more about me than Tuck!

[iiipopes]

Hey! I resemble that remark! Except it's vodka, not whiskey!

[Chuck(G)]

It would be a bit more than an hour, imo.

Now, here's a perfect cross-thread tie-in.

On a rotary tuba, by and large, one valve is built exactly like another. The rotors are identical, symnetrical and production can probably be performed by automated equipment turning out one perfect rotor after the other. Perhaps the casings are also amenable to automation, but again,they're a simple shape, and utterly the same.

So, it would seem that turning out high quality rotary valves should be easier and cheaper than pistons. Maybe that's why the bulk of Chinese tubas are still rotaries.

So between a rotary and a piston tuba, your chances of getting sub-par valves should be greater on a piston instrument, no?

[Lee Stofer]

You may be onto something here. Due to the differing requirements for lubrication and fit, I think it is probably easier to make rotors with acceptable compression than it is to make really good pistons that would have the same level of compression.

I believe that Bloke also hit upon an important factor, as I doubt that any appreciable amount of fitting of valves is done in the manufacture of new King and Conn tubas. The valves can be made relatively quiet with metal valve guides, but the manufacturer is not willing to spend the time to fit the metal guides that tightly and precisely, as that would cost them more per unit, and take more time away from their manufacture of smaller brass instruments which are more profitable for them to produce.

Al Cass was made for trumpets, not tubas. To make King tuba valves really fast and quiet, I lightly lap the pistons with a very fine lapping compound to make them really fit, do a precision alignment with cork and felt washers, replace the valve guides with nylon guides, and sometimes chuck the bottom caps in the lathe and cut the bottom channel out larger to accept Yamaha valve springs. And, I use Hetman #2 valve oil on them, unless they are loose-enough to benefit from Hetman #3 Classic valve oil. This is a non-toxic synthetic, formulated to reduce friction and wear in your tuba valves and keep the horn cleaner.

As part of the purchase experience, string players seem to expect to take their instrument to the repair shop and have it shop-adjusted (and maybe repaired, if bought used) before they start using it daily. Maybe we should not expect a tuba to be ready-to-play right out of the box. But then, maybe we should expect the seller to perform this service as part of the purchase process.

[mbeastep]

You may be onto something here. Due to the differing requirements for lubrication and fit, I think it is probably easier to make rotors with acceptable compression than it is to make really good pistons that would have the same level of compression.

I believe that Bloke also hit upon an important factor, as I doubt that any appreciable amount of fitting of valves is done in the manufacture of new King and Conn tubas. The valves can be made relatively quiet with metal valve guides, but the manufacturer is not willing to spend the time to fit the metal guides that tightly and precisely, as that would cost them more per unit, and take more time away from their manufacture of smaller brass instruments which are more profitable for them to produce.

Al Cass was made for trumpets, not tubas. To make King tuba valves really fast and quiet, I lightly lap the pistons with a very fine lapping compound to make them really fit, do a precision alignment with cork and felt washers, replace the valve guides with nylon guides, and sometimes chuck the bottom caps in the lathe and cut the bottom channel out larger to accept Yamaha valve springs. And, I use Hetman #2 valve oil on them, unless they are loose-enough to benefit from Hetman #3 Classic valve oil. This is a non-toxic synthetic, formulated to reduce friction and wear in your tuba valves and keep the horn cleaner.

As part of the purchase experience, string players seem to expect to take their instrument to the repair shop and have it shop-adjusted (and maybe repaired, if bought used) before they start using it daily. Maybe we should not expect a tuba to be ready-to-play right out of the box. But then, maybe we should expect the seller to perform this service as part of the purchase process.

When I bought my PT-6P in 2000 the valves were undependable and, when cleaning and oiling didn't help enough, I assumed they simply needed more spring tension. I therefore stretched the springs a bit until the valves came up quickly and regularly. I noticed that my finger technique was not very good, but figured that this was yet another effect of age. My hand got sore quickly.

During this past orchestral season, I had a terrible time with the Tarentella movement of Walton's Facade Suite when we did a series of performances with the Alberta Ballet. In practicing this lick all week, my hand felt as though it was falling off.

Shortly after this, a couple of the repairmen who frequent this page suggested that my spring stretching strategy was a poor one and that there were several things a good technician could do to improve valve performance. This had not really occurred to me, but as soon as my season was over, I took my horn to my friend Steve Maubach in Calgary, with a plea to make it possible to use weaker springs with my valves. Using some of the same tricks described by Lee Stofer, light lapping, chemical cleaning, alignment, etc, Steve was able to make a dramatic improvement in the action of the valves while lightening the action. It's hard to believe the difference in the ease of playing the horn. I can now play a D-flat scale more than twice without having to stop to rest and shake my hand.

Anyway, I'm delighted both with Steve's careful work and with the discussion on this board that pointed out what I should have already known. Thanks to you all.

Michael Eastep

[WilliamVance]

I just got a new Satin Silver 2341 this week and am noticing that the valves were a bit sluggish after an hour on the horn. The valves appear to have fine metal dust mixing with the oil. I did find that some hetman classic is working better than the Conn Valve oil that came with it or the Al Cass. I love my horn, but just wish they would have spent that extra time. I'm probably going to have to take the slides and valves out and give it a nice hosing out in the shower.

[tubatooter1940]

Take care of your new baby, TubaTuck, and it will take care of you.
Now it's time to have some real fun!