Should conductors be able to hire and fire at will?

[tofu]

[Chuck(G)]

Why? What did Will ever do?

[windshieldbug]

You have some misunderstandings.

First, tenured players can be fired for cause. This includes performance. There is a procedure set forth in which a tenured player essentially re-auditions, and if they can't cut it, then they are out. So just "laying back once you're in" is never possible.

Cause includes things besides non-performance, such as deportment. And there is a period of probation after the audition, which ensures that the new player is a match both musically and personally before tenure is granted.

Because music is a field of big egos, tenure ONLY assures a player that if they continue to perform acceptably, there are procedures set out which the Orchestra must follow before they are out on the street. Player don't CRAVE security, these things have been put in place from egomaniacs who abuse the positions all too frequently. This may surprise you, but playing Symphonic music hasn't changed that much over the last 300 years. No one has ever taken the job of Music Director and said "You know, we need to LOSE the 2nd Violins! And from now on, the beat will be projected on the ceiling!".

The community musical organization situation you proposed IS NOTHING like what exists in the Symphony world. In fact, there are competent string players who have retired, yet their Orchestras pay them retirement AND gig fees to keep them performing. You cannot but the exprience they have.

These are not people who run, jump, or smash into people. These are artists who need some reasonable expectation of a career for having specialized in what you sem to take for granted.

[Rick Denney]

...if you will, get on the bus.

Yeah, I read that book, too.

But I prefer the more organic approach espoused 30 years ago by Robert Townsend, in his book Up the Organization!. When he took over Avis (he was responsible for the "we try harder" campaign), he kept everyone, even though Avis before that time was an underperformer. He did fire people later on, but for other reasons than them not buying into his "vision". Most of the time, the vision is not clearly articulated, or its articulation is based on quarterly profits rather than long-term stability. He was a Theory Y manager, to be sure.

The part of Good to Great that I focused on was not getting the right people on the bus, but rather defining the core capability of the company to find the intersection of what they could do better than anyone else, what they wanted to do, and what their customers would pay them to do. Defining that core focus is MUCH harder than choosing who should or should not be "on the bus". The book called it the "hedgehog concept" because it would become the thing the people in the organization would pursue singlemindedly. A key feature is that this is what the people in the organization want to do.

My experience observing professional orchestras is that they do a lousy job of defining their hedgehog concept. They don't understand their audiences, they don't understand the business of fund-raising, and they don't understand their performers. They either water down the repertoire to please the Symphony League and alienate the musicians, or they play stuff the audience can't understand or that the can't play well. An orchestra with a good hedgehog concept will know what puts people in the seats, they'll know what their performers are good at, and they'll know what programming motivates their performers. They'll also find the intersection of those three, and focus on that.

Mike is right--there are big egos in professional music. Most conductors will say, "The audience will like what I tell them to like." This puts the musicians in an impossible position of trying to sell something the audience may not want to buy. When it doesn't work, the maestro is unlikely to humbly accept his error; no, he'll blame the orchestra for not playing his program well or he'll blame the front office for not marketing it properly. In some cases he may be right, of course.

I have seen new conductors come to orchestras, with the result that several of the musicians who could no longer cut it were eased out over the following several years. But I don't think we want the days of Fritz Reiner telling a timpanist who made a mistake to go and never come back, putting the management in the position of having to buy out the performer's contract.

If my company decides they no longer need my services, they will not fire me in a way that will provoke me to the point of being compelled to bad-mouth them, unless they catch me in some sort of malfeasance. My industry is small, and word gets around. They'll ease me out with enough sweetening such that I'll at the very least keep quiet about it. The pro orchestra business is much smaller than my industry. Orchestras that could fire people arbitrarily would soon find it hard to attract the best talent. No orchestra management would in their right minds make it easy for a conductor to do them that level of long-term damage.

In the days when conductors stayed with an organization their entire career, they were forced to consider their long-term relationship with the musicians. Conductors rarely keep their position even a decade nowadays, and they often have two or three gigs and don't even live in the same city as the orchestra. That is not the basis for giving them arbitrary control over hiring and firing.

That said, I think employment should be at will, and within the bounds of good management, orchestras should be able to employ whomever they think will serve them most effectively. Good management suggests taking enough care of the employees in the long run so that the best musicians will want to build a career there. But few orchestras are that well-managed, and the union agreements that are now in place are in many ways a reaction to bad management and arbitrary treatment.

Rick "who thinks our system demands that the military be ultimately run by civilians" Denney

[sloan]

That said, I think employment should be at will, and within the bounds of good management, orchestras should be able to employ whomever they think will serve them most effectively.

Beware: "employment at will" might turn out to be expensive (tenure is one form of "compensation" - if you take it away, wages may have to go up to compensate) or quality may suffer (some players - perhaps the very best - may find other careers more rewarding)

[pierre]

"As you know, you play Mahler with the orchestra you have. They're not the orchestra you might want or wish to have at a later time."

[Rick Denney]

Beware: "employment at will" might turn out to be expensive (tenure is one form of "compensation" - if you take it away, wages may have to go up to compensate) or quality may suffer (some players - perhaps the very best - may find other careers more rewarding)

Yes, and yes. There are always trade-offs.

Rick "who suspects the second effect is already happening" Denney

[tofu]

[tofu]

[windshieldbug]

From my experience in the business world I know that when I've been asked to come in and take over an organization I know that there are going to be people I want to retain and folks who need to go because they are either part of the problem or just unwilling to change and buy into the new concept. I can't imagine how hard it must be to step in as the new conductor of an orchestra and try to execute my concept with somebody else's picks who may not be my cup of tea or unwilling to, if you will, get on the bus.

This may surprise you, but the conductor's job is to conduct, and the player's job is to be conducted.

During the probationary phase, a player will see probably more guest conductors, styles. and interpretations than most non-professionals will ever see in a lifetime. A pro player must know the scores, context, and listen to what everyone else doing so that they can do what the director is directing.

it seems to me that orchestras would be better served if the players were forced to stay on the edge to keep the seat

In business, this is one way to make sure your employees never fail, but it's one way to make sure that they don't succeed by too much, either

the union agreements that are now in place are in many ways a reaction to bad management and arbitrary treatment

Exactly.

We have seen it in sports where some great players retire when they see their skills diminish to the point where they might hurt the team and we have also seen the players who linger on and do indeed hurt their teams. At least in sports players can be benched

Professional playing is not about being able to physically recreate scores accurately. If it was, then music would have been over with the advent of the digital synthesizer. Rather, it is about collaborative interpretation, at every level.

[Mark]

The music director of the orchestra with which I perform has this power*.

bloke "who, so far, has not been fired"

When the leader of an organizatioin is really good (e.g. Jack Welch), giving that leader this power will work very well. When the leader is bad (e.g. Jeff Skilling) the results will be disasterous.

The same is true for music directors. It sounds like you have a good one and there are others that I suspect would be very good with complete control of personnel. Though I don't have any personal experience, it sounds like James Conlon might be one. And, I've forgotten his name, but remember the Italian conductor who chewed out the audience in Florida? How would you like to have him running your orchestra?

[Chuck(G)]

I can see it all now--the musicians pack their lunch pails and instruments and head down to the union hall to play cards and wait for a call.

The clerk comes to the window and yells out:

"Sweeny! Mahler 2 at Symphony Hall tonight! See the stage manager"

"Grabowski, grab your tools--yer doing Reed 2 for West Side Story at the Odeon. Rehearsal in 20 mintes."

...

[windshieldbug]

I can see it all now--the musicians pack their lunch pails and instruments and head down to the union hall to play cards and wait for a call.

The clerk comes to the window and yells out:

"Sweeny! Mahler 2 at Symphony Hall tonight! See the stage manager"

"Grabowski, grab your tools--yer doing Reed 2 for West Side Story at the Odeon. Rehearsal in 20 mintes."

...

An' at's how Arturo Toscannini ended up under the east end zone at Giant's Stadium...

The music director of the orchestra with which I perform has this power*.bloke "who, so far, has not been fired"

Which would be no big deal, yourself being a well prepared free-lancer. But which could be a big deal to a well-prepared career musician taking the fall for the inadequacies of a less-than-competent music director

[Steve Marcus]

I've forgotten his name, but remember the Italian conductor who chewed out the audience in Florida?

I believe that was Daniele Gatti.

Steve "I don't think that his middle name is 'Growing Up'" Marcus

[Albertibass]

Why? What did Will ever do?

[Chuck(G)]

[windshieldbug]

I think it only right that the conductor should be able to dismiss any player who is persistently not up to the standard of the ensemble. To not do so would be unfair to the other musicians and detrimental to the reputation of the ensemble

And do players have the ability to dismiss a conductor who may not be up to the standards of the ensemble?

[windshieldbug]

Doncha need BBb's for those gigs?