Tenorhorn in Mahler 7

[joshwirt]

While not having performed this, I've spent quite a bit of time working it up on my MW451 and I think it sounds quite appropriate. Listen to Michael Mulcahy play this passage on his big Willson....sounds pretty good to me. His recording with the CSO and Abbado is fantastic.

I'm not sure about using a baritone horn.....I think it might cut just a little too much and not blend as well with the horns and the bassoon in certain places.

-Josh

[bberlien]

From the performances I've seen, there seems to be little to no consensus on which instrument to use. I've seen student model Yamaha euphoniums used in Dallas and the NYPhil, a $300 Russian St. Pete 3-rotor baritone used with Cleveland, and even saw Mark Lawrence perform and record with SFS playing an extremely old Besson one of his students found in a pawn-shop for a couple hundred bucks. From a musical and timbral standpoint, the German tenor horns (like the Alex) make far greater sense in the orchestra that the big Willson or Hirsbrunner euphs, but as long as it sounds great, in the end it doesn't really matter.

[imperialbari]

The Czech/German Tenorhorn is a very distinct instrument rooted in Cerveny’s original patents.

It has a bore similar to the one of the original Brit baritone, but has a much larger bell volume. At the same time it has been hammered to a thinner gauge of the bell metal. And it has not been stiffened up by the many solderings and the weight associated with the Blaikley compensating system.

It has been kept no secret, that I prefer the Brit style instruments, when it comes to baritones, euphs, and Eb basses (even if my euph is a Jap).

But then there is one specific instrument, which I really miss in my otherwise quite representative collection.

While I was still teaching, I was known as a quite good instrument hunter. For a local band I found an Amati Bb Tenorhorn at a fair price, which was and is just so immensely playable. It responds immediately to any kind of articulation especially in the lower dynamics. It cannot be played loudly, as it breaks up very easily, but then that was not, what Mahler wanted. He wanted the very light sound with a lesser projection than either the modern baritone or euph. (The bean-counters of that band won’t sell it back to me at a reasonable price).

Mahler was raised in the Czech part of the Austrian-Hungarian double monarchy. His parental home was close to an army barrack with a garrison band regularly playing at parades.

On summer Sundays Mahler and his family wandered up the hillsides, from where they could hear the local bands concerting at the main streets of several villages (villages only have main streets in European history - just about the first side street turns a village into a town). Mahler called the resulting cacophony: True polyphony!

Charles Ives had about the same experiences with Sunday band battles in his hometown.

Leonard Bernstein had a huge knowledge of European as well as American culture with knowledge of Jewish and Christian symbolism. He maintained, that Mahler’s usage of the horn could not be understood without knowing the shofar.

Others along that line have said, that Mahler’s usage of the Tenorhorn similarly cannot be understood without his deeply twisted feelings about the militarily dominated (and profoundly corrupt) society into which he lived. But then Mahler purified his symbolic instrumentation. One cannot get that part done rightly on a modern euph.

My relations with German culture are very complex for reasons, which some of you may know, but I wouldn’t be without it. I have worked fairly deep into aspects of German music. One result is my settings for either 5 or 10 brasses of a German folk song. Steve Marcus came back to me, because he found the arrangement strange, which it is. But I went into details about the symbolism hidden into it. Deeply inspired by Mahler. Steve bought my arguments. The music is available for free via one of the links below here. Another link will take you to several photographic documentations of the Tenorhorn (Tenorhörner in plural).

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

PS: If you want a lighter take on the terminology of lower conical brasses please go to

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jul2001 ... 61604.html

(Some transfers between low level ASCII servers has hurt my spelling furthermore, bad as it already is).

[Ace]

I just listened to the orchestral excerpt CD featuring Micael Mulcahy playing bass trumpet and tenor tuba.

The CD insert says he uses a Willson tenor tuba in Bb, large shank receiver, Bach 3G mouthpiece. Could it be that Willson makes a "tenor tuba" which is different from its euphoniums? Think I'll check out the Willson web site.

[smurphius]

Should be the same thing if it were in Bb, right?

[mceuph]

Adam Frey just did it this past week with Seattle using a Miraphone oval rotary euphonium. Got to play it at his euphonium institute, great projection and solid sound. If you happen to be in Denver this week for ITEC, you might go check it out, it will probably be at the Miraphone booth.

Martin Cochran

[imperialbari]

Solidity is the last thing Mahler would want from a Tenorhorn. He had access to all the solid horns, trombones, Wagner tubas, and plain tubas, which he would ever want.

He wanted lightness. One of the larger orchestras along the Bavarian/Austrian border area (I think it was Linz) had an especially thinly walled Tenorhorn with 4 RV made for a performance of this symphony.

The Czech/German bands had/has very different balance, sound, and dynamic proportion from anything known in English speaking countries.

Whenever you attach adjectives sounding good in US/UK ears to a conical tenor/baritone/high-bass instrument, then you run a big risk of missing the point of non-English musical cultures. Just remember the wormy can around Bydlo.

For very obvious reasons German never was a terribly popular second language in the US or in the UK. But as much Mahler discussed Germanism in his works, he knew German culture profoundly.

My postings on this thread relate to theories on symbolism in art, which I will not expand on here.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[adamfrey]

I was lucky enough to perform this with the Oregon SO and Seattle SO in May and June respectively. I performed on a Yamaha 842 in Oregon and a Miraphone Oval Baritone "Premium" model in Seattle. The Oval instrument really fits the quality of the piece in my opinion. The lightness and more direct sound I think makes it work. However, if the conductor wants the part to be a little gentler (or sound like it is over the hill), the euphonium would work. But I think in the scope of historic concepts, the oval baritone would fit better.

Lastly though, you play what the conductor wants and perhaps you offer them options.

Hope that helps,

Adam Frey