Rudy Meinl 6/4 BBb ... Let's Chat

quinterbourne · Post by **quinterbourne** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:09 am

All I can say is, I would love to see the look on my colleagues' faces if I were to bring that to a quintet rehearsal.

I would not, however, enjoy the next task of maneuvering around Bozza's Sonatine with it...

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:42 am

I have played it for a few minutes. it is impractically HUGH.Impressive but not very useful.Costs a fortune.TOO BIG....but really beautiful...

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:14 am

I am also curious about the 6/4 Rudy, mainly because I've never come across one. I wonder how it compares to the Conn jumbo sousaphone, which is a similar size tuba wrapped differently.

-Eric

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:42 pm

To me, the term "mammoth" applies to the Rudy 6/4, but not to run-of-the-mill BAT's. When I admired and tried out the RM 6/4 that Lee Stofer had at the Army conference, it visually dwarfed the Holton 345 that he also had sitting next to it. I've never seen a Conn Jumbo sousaphone, but I'll bet the Rudy is bigger, especially in the tubing closer to the mouthpiece.

Lee's description fits pretty well. The problem is that after five minutes or so, you start to get used to what it can do and you don't want to put it down. It is not that dark, in the sense of being at all tubby, at least not with the right mouthpiece. I tried it with a PT-48, which is to the ultimate anti-woof mouthpiece for big tubas.

I did not find it to be appreciably more difficult to play than the Holton. But there were certain sounds I could not produce on it. With the Holton, I can put a little zip in the sound when intensity is needed, and it was hard to find that sort of edge with the Rudy. That doesn't mean it's application is all that narrowly limited.

But while playing the Rudy, the air just falls out of you. I would have found it unplayable were it not for two years of practice with the Holton, which has forced more air flow on my part.

It's so big that it's tempting to think of it as a freak more interesting to look at than to play, and that's just not the case. It's a tuba that can indeed be played, and in some works would be the ideal weapon for instilling shock and awe. Shostakovich 5 comes to mind as an example, as does the Prokofiev 5. It's a real tuba with a real musical purpose, not just a novelty.

But it's not as versatile as many BAT's and definitely not as versatile as my Holton. I would never want it as an only instrument, and certainly would not recommend it as a beginner tuba or an only tuba. I wouldn't recommend the Holton as an only instrument, either.

If you want one, bring your checkbook. If that poses no problem, any Rudy dealer can order one for you. I'm sure they are made to order, so it will require some patience. I think there are only perhaps two in the U.S., so don't expect to see one on the used market more often than once each lifetime. The advice to go to Diespeck is worthwhile, and cheap when considering such an expensive instrument.

Rick "who was fascinated but not tempted, even if money had been no object" Denney

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:15 pm

Just to clarify, the 6/4 rudy BBb is MUCH bigger than the 5/4 CC,which itself is really a 6/4 by anyone else's standards.The 6/4 rudy is an 8/4 if a BAT is a 6/4.It is CIRCUS huge. Pictures won't tell the story. You have to hold it to fully understand.It could hump a regular BAT and still not be satisfied...

TexTuba · Post by **TexTuba** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:22 pm

MikeMason wrote:It could hump a regular BAT and still not be satisfied...

I can't stop laughing imagining this!!!

Ralph

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:20 pm

Shockwave wrote:I am also curious about the 6/4 Rudy, mainly because I've never come across one. I wonder how it compares to the Conn jumbo sousaphone, which is a similar size tuba wrapped differently.

Let's see.... comparing photos might be good?

The big Rudy: viewtopic.php?t=12915

The BIG Conn from the Sousa band:

A Conn 48K Sousaphone:

The bell collar on this sousaphone bell is 9 1/4 inches!

AndyL · Post by **AndyL** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:40 pm

Rick Denney wrote:To me, the term "mammoth" applies to the Rudy 6/4, but not to run-of-the-mill BAT's.

The term "Mammoth" was the _ACTUAL NAME_ used in advertising by the Martin company for it's large tubas and sousaphones.

Mammoth = Martin

Use some _generic_ term in regard to the Rudy 6/4, please. Mammoth IS the name of a particular American BAT.........

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:00 pm

Well, I really meant comparing the Rudy 6/4 to the Conn jumbo in terms of playing qualities and sound. Of course both horns are very rare, so the chance that someone has played both is pretty remote.

I precisely scaled these two pictures based on the 19.69" bell of the Meinl Weston 2165 and the 22" bell of the 6/4 Rudy. Edit: Also added a scaled picture of a Conn 48k bell.

The Rudy is big, but it has a different wrap that makes it look taller. It's big but not THAT big.

-Eric

Tubadork · Post by **Tubadork** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:01 pm

It really is THAT big,
When it was down at Lee's shop it was standing next to a 2165. Compared to the Rudy it looked like a 2145 (or smaller).
Bill

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:18 am

if you see it in person,you'll understand my "humping" comment better...

Steve Marcus · Post by **Steve Marcus** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:58 am

Boanerges wrote:It takes a thoroughly lascivious mind to utter a phrase like *It could hump a regular BAT and still not be satisfied*.

How else are euphoniums made?

Mikelynch · Post by **Mikelynch** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:45 pm

I think that (as usual) Rick gave an excellent description of the playing characteristics of the Rudy 6/4. One remarkable quality is how great it sounds played softly--very round and mellow, but with a solid core. It takes an excellent player to test the outer end of the volume envelope. But from what I have heard on the horn, that also is pretty remarkable.

It is pretty hard to compare the 6/4 to a 48K. But by any means of comparison, the 6/4 is significantly larger, both in actual dimension and in perceived dimension. I haven't taken the calipers to mine lately, but as I recall, the 48K uses the standard Conn .750 valve section. The Rudy has a .870 bore. The large side of the Rudy tuning slide is over an inch in diameter. It is hard to compare the long, and large, back tube of a 48K to the 6/4. While the size of the back tube on a 48K is of impressive dimension, and probably of bigger volume than an acoustically equivalent portion of the Rudy, comparing the last couple of feet (acoustically) of the two horns, I think the edge has to go to the Rudy.

The 48K puts out a massive sound, particularly in the low register, but no more than the Rudy. In a questionable evealuation, one might select the 48K as closer to an all purpose horn than the Rudy (discounting the sousaphone/tuba question).

I'm very impressed with the Rudy 6/4. It's not a horn for all purposes, but it is suitable for more than one might expect. Its sound and playability when played softly, although probably not part of the original design criteria, is a great aid to its overall usability. But it would be a real kick to play Prok. 5 or Planets on one.

Maybe an adaptation of a quote (originally about lawyers) is appropriate:
"Rudy 6/4's are like nuclear weapons, by all rights they shouldn't exist. But if your neighbor [read: stand partner/competing band, etc.] has one, then you had darn well better have one too."

(With apologies to "Sex, Death and Fly Fishing", by John Gierach)

But then, of course (as I understand it). there are only two in the country, and only about 12 in the world

Mike Lynch

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:10 pm

Bob1062 wrote:There is that one tuba that is always shown on a small stool, does anyone know what that is?

A few months ago I wrote to R Meinl to get a catalog. In addition to the tuba catalog, they sent me a couple of other brochures on their other instruments. One of these brochures is the tuba you're wondering about. It is their 1998 model 5/4 BBb "Bayreuth" tuba that won the 1998 German Musical Instrument Prize. The brochure doesn't state the bore, just that it is 5/4, has a 50 cm (@19.7") bell, and two leadpipes: one for a broader tone and one for more core and projection. And it's leaning against a small stool, not sitting on it.

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:34 pm

Mikelynch wrote:It is pretty hard to compare the 6/4 to a 48K. But by any means of comparison, the 6/4 is significantly larger, both in actual dimension and in perceived dimension. I haven't taken the calipers to mine lately, but as I recall, the 48K uses the standard Conn .750 valve section. The Rudy has a .870 bore. The large side of the Rudy tuning slide is over an inch in diameter. It is hard to compare the long, and large, back tube of a 48K to the 6/4. While the size of the back tube on a 48K is of impressive dimension, and probably of bigger volume than an acoustically equivalent portion of the Rudy, comparing the last couple of feet (acoustically) of the two horns, I think the edge has to go to the Rudy.

The 48K puts out a massive sound, particularly in the low register, but no more than the Rudy. In a questionable evealuation, one might select the 48K as closer to an all purpose horn than the Rudy (discounting the sousaphone/tuba question).

Mike Lynch

The bore on the 48k is .772, but the leadpipe is about a foot shorter, so the smaller bore valve section is placed in a smaller part of a very similar taper as is the fashion between German and American horns. I drew a line across the bell of the 6/4 in the picture exactly the same length as the ring on the identically scaled bell of the 48k, and they look pretty similar in size discounting the broad flare of the Conn bell.

How are attacks on the big Rudy? I've noticed on the 48k that attacks tend to be sudden and more like a string bass as there is no resistance to blow against. Sometimes this is good, for instance when playing a walking bass line, but other times it would be nice to get a smooth attack a little more easily. I'll bet the 4th valve is more useful with an .870 bore, but how are the false tones on the Rudy? On the 48k the 4th valve is stuffy, but the false tones are extraordinary.

A good candidate for hearing a 6/4 Rudy with an orchestra might be the Vienna Phil. playing Mahler 2. The tuba on that recording has an extremely commanding, bass heavy sound. It doesnt shower blankets of sound down on the audience like a Yorkophone, it envelops the entire brass section.

I can't afford a 6/4 Rudy, but I found a 24" raincatcher bell for the 48k on ebay for only $35, so now I'm ready for orchestral auditions as long as they use a very opaque screen...

-Eric

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:11 am

Shockwave wrote: ...but I found a 24" raincatcher bell for the 48k on ebay for only $35, so now I'm ready for orchestral auditions as long as they use a very opaque screen...

Hey Eric, that thing looks a lot shinier than it was at the L.A. Tuba Christmas last December. I was the guy with the gold plated 38K... we chated about our horns for a while during rehearsal. Hope to see you there again this year.

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:11 pm

Boanerges wrote:Shockwave,

My wife had a good laugh about the wallpaper and carpet color combination in the room where you posed the *beast* with a raincatcher. She wondered if that room was in a house of *ill repute* ?

Boanerges

They entertain me, I entertain them.

No Rudy in Vienna? Well, if you have iTunes, search for "wieder sehr breit". The Vienna version is at least a good simulation of the sound of a huge BBb tuba. It's definitely not an F tuba.

-Eric

abtuba · Post by **abtuba** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:38 pm

anyone looking for a good rudy 5/4??

email aaronbrunelle@yahoo.com

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:16 pm

AndyL wrote:
Rick Denney wrote:To me, the term "mammoth" applies to the Rudy 6/4, but not to run-of-the-mill BAT's.
The term "Mammoth" was the _ACTUAL NAME_ used in advertising by the Martin company for it's large tubas and sousaphones.

Mammoth = Martin

Use some _generic_ term in regard to the Rudy 6/4, please. Mammoth IS the name of a particular American BAT.........

Just because Martin decided to take a word out of the dictionary and use it as a model name doesn't mean I can no longer use the word for its original purpose. And that purpose is to either describe a huge or immense example of the something or a large, hairy prehistoric elephant with really long, curved tusks.

Martin should have gotten permission from the elephant. Or from the Russians, who invented the word in the first place.

Rick "thinking a Martin Mammoth is no larger (vis a vis a RM 6/4) than a Martin Handcraft is handmade (vis a vis a RM anything)" Denney

AndyL · Post by **AndyL** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:42 pm

Rick Denney wrote:Just because Martin decided to take a word out of the dictionary and use it as a model name doesn't mean I can no longer use the word for its original purpose.

Whatever you say.......it just seems peculiar to this mammoth owner, to be on a tuba discussion forum and see the name of his model of tuba (even in a generic sense) used to describe an aspect of different make of instrument, to the exclusion of the instrument that actually has that name.

Rick Denney wrote:Rick "thinking a Martin Mammoth is no larger (vis a vis a RM 6/4) than a Martin Handcraft is handmade (vis a vis a RM anything)" Denney

You lost me there.......are you saying Martin "Handcrafts" were not hand made? That's exactly what Martin's catalog claimed.....that "Handcraft" Martin Mediums, Monsters, and Mammoths were essentially handmade from top to bottom.....I'll save you a lengthy quote about hand-bending bows, hand-fitting valves and slides, hand-hammered bells, etc......

I wonder if you're confusing the model name of the instrument (Medium, Monster, Mammoth), with the "build quality" (Handcraft).

Martin Handcraft instruments came with a 50-year guarantee against defects in materials and workmanship. They were built to a quality standard, not a price point.

TubeNet

Rudy Meinl 6/4 BBb ... Let's Chat

Mammoth = Martin

rudy 5/4

Re: Mammoth = Martin

Whatever......