Government Interference in Chicago

[Doug@GT]

Minimum wage turns out to be a cynical attack on the marginal work force, rather than a benefit to the downtrodden poor.

There is a good paper of this topic here.

Doug "it's astounding because it's true"

[DBCooper]

I want to puke every time I hear a union boss tearfully emote about his downtrodden, "workin'-man" non-union brother in support of higher minimum wages. Turns out, he's the one with the hob-nailed boots, and that marginal worker is the one with the boot-prints on his posterior

None-the-less, thanks to Arturo Toscanini (among others), conductors AND patrons have looked down their noses at orchestral musicians for decades, and the union has been irreplacable for them.

[Rick Denney]

None-the-less, thanks to Arturo Toscanini (among others), conductors AND patrons have looked down their noses at orchestral musicians for decades, and the union has been irreplacable for them.

You will note that I was not arguing against unions. I was arguing against some union tactics. I have no beef with collective bargaining, when the tactics are honorable.

My complaint here was against using pretended and contrived sympathy for minimum-wage non-union workers as support for increasing the minimum wage, when the real objective is to drive those workers out of the market altogether.

I'm also astounded by the rhetoric of many union fat-cats when talking about corporate fat-cats.

Rick "who likes a balanced system, but who also likes honesty and good faith" Denney

[tofu]

I want to puke every time I hear a union boss tearfully emote about his downtrodden, "workin'-man" non-union brother in support of higher minimum wages. Turns out, he's the one with the hob-nailed boots, and that marginal worker is the one with the boot-prints on his posterior

None-the-less, thanks to Arturo Toscanini (among others), conductors AND patrons have looked down their noses at orchestral musicians for decades, and the union has been irreplacable for them.

Do symphonic musicians really believe that the patrons AND I assume you are referring to "THE PAYING CUSTOMER" really feel that the folks who "BUY" tickets look down on them?

Even if this is true -- in my business as long as a customer is paying me he can think what he wants of me.

I understand the conductor reference, but how has the union helped the patron (aka customer) with this? The unions certainly have contributed to higher ticket prices - which of course contributes to fewer folks coming to concerts - which ultimately leads to fewer orchestras and less demand for orchestral musicians.

[DBCooper]

You will note that I was not arguing against unions. I was arguing against some union tactics. I have no beef with collective bargaining, when the tactics are honorable.

My complaint here was against using pretended and contrived sympathy for minimum-wage non-union workers as support for increasing the minimum wage, when the real objective is to drive those workers out of the market altogether.

So noted. You've got the choir here. With SO many negatives being mentioned about unions, I just thought I'd mention a positive

Do symphonic musicians really believe that the patrons AND I assume you are referring to "THE PAYING CUSTOMER" really feel that the folks who "BUY" tickets look down on them?

I understand the conductor reference, but how has the union helped the patron (aka customer) with this? The unions certainly have contributed to higher ticket prices - which of course contributes to fewer folks coming to concerts - which ultimately leads to fewer orchestras and less demand for orchestral musicians.

I'm not referring to wages, I'm talking about working conditions. While the conductors have played up the fact that they are the "only" ones capable of intelligent interpretation, they continue to treat orchestras not as collaborators, but as musical children. That despite the fact that every one of them in a professional orchestra has a terminal degree or practical equivalent.

What you are implying is that such positions should be "outsourced". I hate to tell you, but it is NOT musician's salaries that are dictating the cost of ticket prices. I think that if you looked into it you would find, like in every other business, it is funding, facilities, capital expendatures, the "support staff", and the hugh salaries that Music Directors/conductors command that FAR outstrip musician salaries. Ken Lay could have EASILY been a conductor!

[MartyNeilan]

If we have burglaries taking place in a neighborhood, and the suspect is a white male, we aren't going to shake down people at random. We aren't going to be stopping black teens or Hispanic grandmothers. We are going to press the pavement for white males. WTF is wrong with polictically correct people? They have lost their minds.

[windshieldbug]

Oh great.
Now I'm hungry again

Sure...

[dunelandmusic]

Addendum to the story-the computer chips in dogs vote was postponed in order to have another hearing on the matter.

The arguments you cited about strays have been part of this debate, and the problem with pets in the wake of Katrina have also been part of the debate. I don't really care if people want to chip their pets, I just don't think it's the aldermen's decision, it should be left to the individual. They had to vote themselves a raise in this same meeting to earn more money to deal in issues that they should leave alone. If they would limit their scope of government, the would have to "work so hard".

[Chuck(G)]

The arguments you cited about strays have been part of this debate, and the problem with pets in the wake of Katrina have also been part of the debate. I don't really care if people want to chip their pets, I just don't think it's the aldermen's decision, it should be left to the individual. They had to vote themselves a raise in this same meeting to earn more money to deal in issues that they should leave alone. If they would limit their scope of government, the would have to "work so hard".

Offhand, I'd say that would be okay if animal control wasn't funded by tax dollars. But as long as the gummint (city or county) picks up strays, I suppose they get to call the shots.

Hey, if you privatized AC, you could have the animal version of the Lincoln Park Pirates (are you old enough to remember this one?):

http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs ... ates.shtml

If you don't like it, you can always vote the bums out.

[MartyNeilan]

2/ Most people whose work is worth less than $5.15/hr. are teenagers or temp's. Any able-bodied person with an I.Q. of at least 80 who cannot (without subsidy nor dictate) earn at least twice that much has some serious lifestyle issues.

I respectfully disagree, unless I misunderstand your definition of "temps."
Go to any employment service in your area, and you will most likely find there are plenty of 30 day temp-to-perm jobs that require some modest degree of skill. These will most likely also be in the $7-$8 range, with a 50 cent increase once it goes permanent.
I am not including day labor places, many of them are almost as criminal as their workers. You will make less than minimum wage there once you pay your travel costs, equipment fees, and "paid today" fees.
Go to ANY retail outlet and ask for $10.30 an hour to start. They will laugh you out of the store.
In my area of the state, Dell was recently hiring "experienced PC technicians with A+ certification" for slightly less than the amount you stated.

[dunelandmusic]

Bloke, your prediction is right on:

Wal-Mart first tried to come to Chicago a few years ago. They proposed 2 stores, one was ok, was was blocked. The blocked one was again with the argument that the South Side neighborhood they wanted to move in to wouldn't be served by a low wage company like Wal Mart (which actually pays more than the minimum wage in most markets) So, Wal Mart built a store across the city limits in Evergreen Park, Chicago lost out. Obviously land was more expensive in Evergreen Park. When the Evergreen Park store started taking applications, it was reported 30,000 people applied for about 1,000 jobs. Even farther into the suburbs, in Crestwood, when their store opened this year, it was reported 6,000 people applied for about 700 jobs. So, as far as I can tell, the need is there, and people are voting with their feet-obviously they think Wal Mart is an opportunity for them. And part of Wal Mart's response to the ordinance was as you say, they have reportedly said they will ring the city with stores.

As far as politics, this could be construed as politics, but is really directed as an economics discussion. In the realm of politics, most of Chicago is Democrat, and yet this issue split traditional political lines, with 1/2 of the African American caucus voting for the ordinance, and 1/2 voting against. The mayor is definitely against it-he wants the sales tax.

[dunelandmusic]

No doubt the mayor wants the revenue. But how else can you turn a non-producing area around? I'm sure he wants all areas of the city to do well-more revenue. It's a lot easier to provide services with corresponding revenues.

In our part of the country (maybe everywhere?) either you get business in to generate taxes, or you raise real estate taxes. This is how government funds itself.

[dunelandmusic]

That's why this particular situation is so fun, the city council, while almost all claiming to be from the same political party, are split on whether this is a good or bad idea. Thus, it really turns into an argument over what is sound economic policy, which requires thought and logic.

[windshieldbug]

Global Warming meets the City Council...

[dunelandmusic]

I guess they weren't bluffing:

Chicago's controversial big- box ordinance has produced its first casualty: Target has pulled out of a 32-acre shopping mall at 119th and Marshfield and will likely cut and run from the North Side's Wilson Yards project as well, city officials said Wednesday.

Target's decision to follow through on its threat to avoid Chicago comes just one week after a bitterly divided City Council defied Daley by requiring retailing giants to pay their employees a "living wage" of at least $10 an hour and $3 in benefits by 2010

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst ... box03.html

(should be noted tha Calumet City is not far from the site, and that suburb has indicated they would welcome Target)