Bach Cello Suite 1

[pulseczar]

For the grace note into two part harmonies, how do you guys usually play it? Just hit the grace note and one note, go for all three notes, or some other variation? Thanks for the replies.

[windshieldbug]

I like muliphonics, it was good practice, and they weren't written for tuba, anyway, so I'd do a grace into multiphonics.

I've heard it done as quick single notes up, which I think sounds very idiomatic for single line baroque music and also keeps the harmonic context.

[Dennis K.]

It sounds to me like you are referring to the double-stops.

Try giving them a specific rhythmic value. Doug Yeo has some terrific realizations on his website.

[windshieldbug]

I played it as written on my CC ...

[mbeastep]

I transcribed several movements of this piece into c to play on the CC tuba. This is musically satisfying because it puts nice open notes in important places. In addition, it makes it equally comfortable to play the pieces with the same fingerings on the Eb or F tuba. The key follows the instrument. In each case the tessitura is also very suitable for the instrument, without any extremes at either end.

Michael Eastep

[smurphius]

There is a complete set of the 6 transcribed by Ralph Sauer. This version is avilable on Cherry-Classics.com in book or PDF form. This transcription takes many of the works down a perfect 4th or perfect 5th from their original key lending them perfectly to play on an Eb or F tuba or a very adventurous CC player. I would probably can the idea of using a BBb. In this particular arrangement, the double stops usually only consist of the root to hold the chord's quality and then the next note. Keeps out clutter while maintaining tonality.

Check it out!

http://www.cherry-classics.com

[ahowle]

When the Suites are performed on Tuba

Excepting the Sarabande from Suite no. 5, which has as of late been asked on some orchestral auditions for bass trombone, the suites are very rarely performed on any brass instrument. That being said, they have been played well close to never.

[windshieldbug]

I never performed it, either. Just used it for as practice, because its good instrument alone writing.

[ahowle]

They're actually great for that on tuba. In fact, in their first printed edition in 1824, they were published and marketed as etudes.

[Chuck(G)]

A tuba's not a 'cello.

Ralph Sauer doesn't sound anything like Yo Yo Ma when playing the suites.

I've heard one of the 'cello suites played on tenor sax and it doesn't sound any better.

That being said, I wonder if understanding the nuances of bowing might be a help to interpretation. Perhaps a study of the Tartini "L'Art du Archet" variations might make a good introduction, if you can stand 50 variations on a simple melody.

[Chuck(G)]

A tuba's not a 'cello.

Maybe not... but I get a nice purr from my Miraphone when I play it legato that to my ears sounds mighty close.

I don't know. Let me go way out on a limb here and venture that if you think you sound like Yo Yo Ma or Pablo Casals or Slava playing the 'cello suites, you're either superhuman or not paying enough attention.

Mine own humble opinion, of course, but I think I could tell the difference blindfolded with cotton in my ears and a rock band and a chorus of jackhammers playing full-tilt in the background.

Not that one shouldn't study and play these things, or even Paganini caprices for that matter. There's a heckuva lot to learn in them. It's just that, compared to a master on a 'cello, any brass performance is bound to fall short.

But then, I have the same problem with "Bach for Band", so I'm prejudiced.

[zeign7]

I would word it differently than "falling short." As advocates of the low brass world it does us little good to refer to our instruments as falling short of what sounds a cello can produce rather than being optimistic about what sounds the tuba can produce.

I'm not trying to attack anyone. Harvey Phillips said something that pertains to this at ITEC this summer. He said (paraphrasing) that his teacher told him that no one owns music and that any music he could get his hands on he should play. I think, while trying to emulate the articulation of the cello, one might aim for a mello yet beautiful sound while playing the cello suites. It is a tuba and it's going to sound like a tuba no matter what, trying to emulate the cello might simply be a way to achieve a desirable tone quality that the tuba can produce for use in this context. As a euphonium player I have been told countless things about tone production. The most common one was "Sound like a tuba!" I was later told that this concept of tone production for the euphonium was very wrong and I think most professional euphonium players would agree with me in saying that the euphonium, while related to the tuba, has a distinct sound difference.

What I'm trying to say is relish in what your instrument can do and stretch the boundaries, but if you want to play a bach cello suite and it to sound like a cello, play the cello! If instead you would like to play a beautiful piece of music on tuba, then take this time honored piece and make it sound beautiful on the tuba, end of story.

[Donn]

A tuba's not a 'cello.

Nor is a 'cello, if we're going to be strict about it. Didn't Bach write for an instrument with looser gut strings, and bow that made the triple stops work?

[Chuck(G)]

A tuba's not a 'cello.

Nor is a 'cello, if we're going to be strict about it. Didn't Bach write for an instrument with looser gut strings, and bow that made the triple stops work?

The modern instrument is a lot closer to the Baroque version than a tuba. And in fact, there have been recordings on the Baroque 'cello, using a curved bow--and even recordings on the 'cello piccolo, which some purists insist was the intent of the sixth suite. The modern instrument seems to hold its own very well.

But the Bach suites for 'cello may not even be the work of old Johann:

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1617989.htm

[windshieldbug]

Didn't matter to me one fig who actually wrote them... they were challenging, and I had fun playing them. Got a 'cello manuscript second hand for pennies. Didn't sound like a 'cello, yet I think that playing them gave me a better uderstanding of what the tuba was capable of, and helped me get a concept of the sound that was mine!

[Chuck(G)]

Didn't matter to me one fig who actually wrote them... they were challenging, and I had fun playing them. Got a 'cello manuscript second hand for pennies. Didn't sound like a 'cello, yet I think that playing them gave me a better uderstanding of what the tuba was capable of, and helped me get a concept of the sound that was mine!

Just my point, Mike. Great study works, but not particularly something you'd want to perform, particularly if you were playing to an audience of 'cellists.

[BopEuph]

--and even recordings on the 'cello piccolo, which some purists insist was the intent of the sixth suite.

In the Anna Magdalena Bach Manuscript version (see below), there was a note before the prelude of the sixth suite that the tuning was: C,G,d,a,e1. That is, it's the standard tuning for the cello, but an extra string tuned a fifth higher on the instrument. No one knows what the intended instrument was, but the violoncello piccolo was considered. The instrument was arm-held, like the viola, but an octave lower, and had five strings. Also, Leopold Mozart has described the cello in his violin method of 1756 as such:

"The seventh kind (of violin) is called the bass-viol, or, as the Italians called it, the violoncello. Formerly this had five strings, but now only four."

So Bach still may have intended this piece for a cello, just not how we conceive it today.

But the Bach suites for 'cello may not even be the work of old Johann:

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1617989.htm

It is widely accepted that Anna Magdalena Bach's handwriting is the most original version that we have, but it is also accepted that she was doing the copywork for J.S. at that time. Because of this belief, many publications vary because they look at different texts. Thus, if Anna Magdalena's copy is secondhand, maybe the other texts are, as well.

Anyways, my opinion on playing it is this: get as many recordings of this piece as you can. This is a gimme. But, this one is not: I have been looking into the Barrenreiter Urtext version of this. Not only is there an Urtext version, but the publishing house also decided to reprint the original manuscripts of five different publications (commonly referred to in modern publications as versions A through E). This is a seven volume set, and one of the volumes is what I believe to be vastly important. It's a booklet of performance practice of the suites.

The other volumes are absolutely great for comparison. You can find through the volumes anything that might help with making the execution of the piece easier for performance, like varying techical or phrasing ideas.

Oh, and to answer the original question: I arrpeggiate. I had a lesson with Janos Starker, and he dug it. However, I did omit certain notes that I thought made the arrpeggiation sound forced. Mr. Starker either didn't notice, or he didn't point any of them out.

Nick

[BopEuph]

Just my point, Mike. Great study works, but not particularly something you'd want to perform, particularly if you were playing to an audience of 'cellists.

I actually did perform one of the suites with a complete cello studio listening back in my days at FSU. I had more compliments by cellists that day than I did whenever I played euphonium literature.

Nick

[Chuck(G)]

[quote="BopEuph"]I actually did perform one of the suites with a complete cello studio listening back in my days at FSU. I had more compliments by cellists that day than I did whenever I played euphonium literature.[quote]

Congratulations, Nick! But what does that say about the state of euphonium literature?

[BopEuph]

Congratulations, Nick! But what does that say about the state of euphonium literature?

Actually, I don't think it has anything to do with the state of euphonium literature. I have always had what I consider a standard amount of compliments (whether or not it was deserved is besides the point). I am just saying that it is possible to perform the literature with success. The compliments that day were all pretty much the same from everyone I talked to that day: they said they enjoyed it, and that they would have never conceived it played on the euphonium, and that I have adapted it to the instrument nicely. That's what I am saying. I'm sure Oystein gets more attention about Fnugg than any other piece he's performed, does that mean everything else he performs is meaningless?

Nick