I was just talking with an older friend of mine about recording sessions. She says she's had many experiences where, because nothing was in writing, she ended up working longer for the same amount of money, or not getting paid at all. I've had nothing but positive experiences with session work so far, but I suppose that can't continue forever. Also, my group recently ran into a situation where we were told the wrong date for a gig by a club (we actually caught it before they did, but there was nothing we could do about changing it so we had to cancel). On the other hand, there is another club we recently played at that does a contract for every gig they book. It was nice to know that we couldn't be screwed over. BUT, that is the only time I've ever been offered that option.
So, my question to the board is this: as a freelancer, when must you insist on getting something in writing? I would think that unless you are famous/in demand, most clubs/studio people are going to blow you off and find someone else since they rarely take this step. And what is the legal value of such a piece of paper anyway? It's probably not going to be notarized or drafted by a lawyer. I'm sure there are people lurking here who have some stories/advice on this matter.
When to get it in writing
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Stefan Kac
- bugler
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Tubadork
- pro musician
- Posts: 1312
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- Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Hey,
Anthing under $500 is covered by a verbal agreement and you can sue in court. Anything above $500 needs to be in writing, which doesn't necessarirly mean a contract. It could be written on a napkin, a piece of paper with or without legal jargon, or (I think) even an email can be considered a contract.
Hope that helps a little, it's what I remember from contract law in college.
Bill Pritchard
Anthing under $500 is covered by a verbal agreement and you can sue in court. Anything above $500 needs to be in writing, which doesn't necessarirly mean a contract. It could be written on a napkin, a piece of paper with or without legal jargon, or (I think) even an email can be considered a contract.
Hope that helps a little, it's what I remember from contract law in college.
Bill Pritchard
Without inner peace, outer peace is impossible.
Huttl for life
Huttl for life
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tubatooter1940
- 6 valves
- Posts: 2530
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:09 pm
- Location: alabama gulf coast
Interesting thread, Stefan Kac.
We Creekers are about to record our second C.D. and after our first live recording, this one will be all in studio. We plan to bring in fiddlers, a bagpiper, and at least one percussionist.
We discussed payment for our guest players. A payment of $150-200 would equal the average pay of a single act in a beach bar to play 4 hours.
Union scale is another alternative.
We believe that showing up with part prepared is the biggest hassle. Once you're there, hanging around to tidy up tracks and the inevitable beer bust afterwards are usually not a problem.
We are fans of these outside musicians and have no wish to underpay or insult them. We are looking forward to a fun session and fine memories afterward.
Thank you Tubadork for your post.
Need to hear from tubenetters with experience at this.
Dennis Gray
tubatooter1940
www.johnreno.com/
We Creekers are about to record our second C.D. and after our first live recording, this one will be all in studio. We plan to bring in fiddlers, a bagpiper, and at least one percussionist.
We discussed payment for our guest players. A payment of $150-200 would equal the average pay of a single act in a beach bar to play 4 hours.
Union scale is another alternative.
We believe that showing up with part prepared is the biggest hassle. Once you're there, hanging around to tidy up tracks and the inevitable beer bust afterwards are usually not a problem.
We are fans of these outside musicians and have no wish to underpay or insult them. We are looking forward to a fun session and fine memories afterward.
Thank you Tubadork for your post.
Need to hear from tubenetters with experience at this.
Dennis Gray
tubatooter1940
www.johnreno.com/
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Steve Marcus
- pro musician
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The AFM's policy is that this question is moot: you get a signed contract for EVERY engagement and, of course, you go through the AFM, use their authorized forms, pay into their pension plan, etc. The main benefit that they promote is that the AFM will assist you in the case of default on the part of the party hiring you.
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Alex F
- 4 valves
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- Location: Chicago
A contract can be oral or written. Both are enforceable. Written contracts, of course, are easier to prove up later on. They don't have to be too complicated.
You can use one of the standard AFM contracts. Alternatively, draw up a form setting forth:
1. The employer's (contractor's) name
2. The nature of the work to be performed
3. The date(s) for the gig
4. The agreed-upon compensation or hourly rate
5. Any conditions (rain-dates, re-scheduling, who provides what equipment, etc.) that may apply
6. Your name
Both parties should sign. If the other party is lazy or refuses and you really want the gig, just send a them a brief letter setting out the points above, and ask that they return a signed copy.
Should a dispute arise later, you will have some writing to evidence an agreement, or least some evidence you can present evidencing the terms of an agreement. Most jurisdictions have "small claims" courts that allow you to proceed "pro se" (for yourself), and run under expedited and informal procedures.
You can use one of the standard AFM contracts. Alternatively, draw up a form setting forth:
1. The employer's (contractor's) name
2. The nature of the work to be performed
3. The date(s) for the gig
4. The agreed-upon compensation or hourly rate
5. Any conditions (rain-dates, re-scheduling, who provides what equipment, etc.) that may apply
6. Your name
Both parties should sign. If the other party is lazy or refuses and you really want the gig, just send a them a brief letter setting out the points above, and ask that they return a signed copy.
Should a dispute arise later, you will have some writing to evidence an agreement, or least some evidence you can present evidencing the terms of an agreement. Most jurisdictions have "small claims" courts that allow you to proceed "pro se" (for yourself), and run under expedited and informal procedures.
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Chuck(G)
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From a strictly "four corners" business point of view, the payment terms (cash, net 30, etc.) should be called out too. "I'll pay you as soon as we sell a million" or "The check is in the mail" just doesn't work out well. If the payment terms are very specific, then you've got something to hold the other party to. Stipulating how hours will be counted would help too. You want to remove any possible sources of dispute by calling them out.
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Dean E
- 5 valves
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The establishment's reputation is important. I know of two musicians who claimed that they got screwed after playing a week at an offshore resort--not in the US.
The musicians' story was that they were informed they would not be paid because of marijuana use. The resort threatened to defend any claims by asserting that the musicians were the ones in breach of contract. Sounds too much like blackmail to me, although I only heard one side of the story.
No partial payments were offered, and the musicians were strung along for the entire contract period.
The musicians' story was that they were informed they would not be paid because of marijuana use. The resort threatened to defend any claims by asserting that the musicians were the ones in breach of contract. Sounds too much like blackmail to me, although I only heard one side of the story.
No partial payments were offered, and the musicians were strung along for the entire contract period.
Dean E
[S]tudy politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy . . . in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry [and] music. . . . John Adams (1780)
[S]tudy politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy . . . in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry [and] music. . . . John Adams (1780)
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Stefan Kac
- bugler
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Chuck(G)
- 6 valves
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Well, you know the old saying, "A verbal contract is worth the paper it's written on".
On the web, there's lots of good information on contract law. If you're really curious, start googling and you, too, can learn the vagaries of things such as "severability". You can even get to use cool words like "witnesseth".
On the web, there's lots of good information on contract law. If you're really curious, start googling and you, too, can learn the vagaries of things such as "severability". You can even get to use cool words like "witnesseth".
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tofu
- 5 valves
- Posts: 1998
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:59 pm
- Location: One toke over the line...
Even way back in HS my small jazz combo insisted on a contract. Today we even lay out the number & length of set breaks and depending on the type of gig whether we get fed and what we get fed. I wouldn't do a gig today without a written contract and we insist on being paid before we play.
This was a result of doing a K of C convention banquet at the Chicago Hilton 15 years ago. At the end of the 5 hour gig the guy who was supposed to pay us disapppears and I ended up chasing him down 5 flights of stairs. Let's just say that what transpired in the stairwell after I caught him got us our $4000. After that we don't play till they pay.
This is especially true for politicians who can do a great job of dodging paying you -- especially if they lose the election.
This was a result of doing a K of C convention banquet at the Chicago Hilton 15 years ago. At the end of the 5 hour gig the guy who was supposed to pay us disapppears and I ended up chasing him down 5 flights of stairs. Let's just say that what transpired in the stairwell after I caught him got us our $4000. After that we don't play till they pay.
This is especially true for politicians who can do a great job of dodging paying you -- especially if they lose the election.
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tubatooter1940
- 6 valves
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- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:09 pm
- Location: alabama gulf coast
I played at a beach bar in Biloxi where the manager insisted we play 45 on and 15 off. After the first week he complained that some breaks lasted as long as 17 minutes. I disputed this and found, taped to my mike stand, the following night, a printout sheet from a timer that came on when the jukebox was shut off.
He was right.
He was right.
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Mitch
- 3 valves
- Posts: 253
- Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:29 am
- Location: Chicago
contracts
While in grad school at Michigan, I came to know a man who taught contract law there for his entire career (he was offered a position at the Law School shortly after graduation). We discussed contract issues on a number of occassions. He said in those discussions and in his class, "If an issue can be misinterpreted, it's likely it will be misinterpreted. Put it in writing."
He also attributed these misinterpretations as the reason for all the ridiculous contract riders that you hear about, i.e., all-white dressing rooms (no leather upholstery), only green m&m's, etc. One scenario he offered up:
A performer agrees to a gig. He gets to the hall, and every source of water, be it drinking fountain or faucet, smells like sulfur and tastes like dead fish. So the next time he's offered a gig at that hall, he says, "Okay, but I gotta have bottled water." Gets to the gig only to find they filled empty milk jugs with...the stinky water. Bottled water, right? So the next time, he says, "It has to be Evian." Gets there...looks like the bottle has been rolling around in somebody's trunk for a long time, and on a hot day, so the one and only sippy-cup-sized bottle is filthy and about 120 degrees. So, finally, he puts in the contract, "Employer must provide no less than 4 (four) bottles of new and clean (free from debris) Evian, to be no less than 20 (twenty) oz. (ounces) in volume, to be chilled to a temperature between 40 (forty) and 50 (fifty) degrees Fahrenheit." Gets to the gig. It's all there, but it's in a fridge in the basement in a locked room for which nobody seems to have a key. So they add to the rider, "Provisions for water as above, but must be in a refrigerator in a dressing room set aside for the Performer." And on it goes. Sometimes these riders develop just because a big-ego a-hole can ask for it and get it. But more often it's probably the result of bad experiences and the desire to prevent a repeat.
If you want protection, get it in writing and be thorough. If you haven't specifically asked for it, you can't be upset if they haven't read your mind.
Also, beware the boilerplate contracts available online and at places like Office Depot/Staples/etc. I once taught at a decent-sized "Center for Music and Arts" that hadn't used any type of contract with its teachers then suddenly decided they would. The problem was that they had copied (poorly) one of these fill-in-the-blank contracts. A number of people just said, "Sure," and signed without reading. It offered immense protections and guarantees to the Center, and absolutely no protection or guarantee of any kind to the teachers. I re-wrote it in a form I found acceptable and submitted a signed copy with the revisions. I never heard another word about the contract, nor did they offer it to any other teacher after that (I had also pointed out the increased degree of risk they were assuming with some of the clauses).
The items you should get in writing, including, but not limited to (amending Alex F's list):
Employer's Name
Name of the person/company providing payment, if different
from "Employer"
Name of Performer(s)
Person or people to whom payment should be delivered (i.e.,
should the check be made payable to "Riverton Brass
Quintet" or Tom, Jim, Sue, Bill and Jenny?)
Time of payment
Means of delivery of payment (i.e., cash, check, electronic)
Deposit, if applicable
Terms under which deposit, or any part of it, is refundable
Determination of compensation (set or hourly)
If hourly payment, amount of time to perform and corresponding
dollar amount specified
If hourly, at a specified duration, rate of compensation if asked
to perform longer and minimum increment (i.e., "If duration
of performance exceeds agreed-upon two hours,
performer(s) must be paid for one full hour at a rate equal
to 150% of rate applied to first two hours regardless of
whether performer(s) complete an additional hour; part
equals whole such that performance for any portion of an
additional hour shall result in payment for a full hour.")
Items you're expected to provide (including, but not limited to,
sheet music, chairs, stands, lighting, wind clips)
Items the employer is providing (including, but not limited to,
items listed above, as well as refreshments, air
conditioning, shelter if outdoor, place to change clothes)
Attire, if applicable
Date, including specified day of the week and date
(i.e., "Friday, August 11, 2006")
Time
Location, including any applicable limitations on access, parking,
means of delivery or set-up)
Weather contingencies, if outdoor (temp., precipitation, etc.)
Any rescheduling options should weather contingencies apply
Breaks (number and duration, whether specific or formulaic)
Duration of set(s)
Repertoire to be included or excluded, if applicable
Basically, if you want to be sure it's covered, get it in writing. Contention arises when one party assumes the other "understands" the expectation.
He also attributed these misinterpretations as the reason for all the ridiculous contract riders that you hear about, i.e., all-white dressing rooms (no leather upholstery), only green m&m's, etc. One scenario he offered up:
A performer agrees to a gig. He gets to the hall, and every source of water, be it drinking fountain or faucet, smells like sulfur and tastes like dead fish. So the next time he's offered a gig at that hall, he says, "Okay, but I gotta have bottled water." Gets to the gig only to find they filled empty milk jugs with...the stinky water. Bottled water, right? So the next time, he says, "It has to be Evian." Gets there...looks like the bottle has been rolling around in somebody's trunk for a long time, and on a hot day, so the one and only sippy-cup-sized bottle is filthy and about 120 degrees. So, finally, he puts in the contract, "Employer must provide no less than 4 (four) bottles of new and clean (free from debris) Evian, to be no less than 20 (twenty) oz. (ounces) in volume, to be chilled to a temperature between 40 (forty) and 50 (fifty) degrees Fahrenheit." Gets to the gig. It's all there, but it's in a fridge in the basement in a locked room for which nobody seems to have a key. So they add to the rider, "Provisions for water as above, but must be in a refrigerator in a dressing room set aside for the Performer." And on it goes. Sometimes these riders develop just because a big-ego a-hole can ask for it and get it. But more often it's probably the result of bad experiences and the desire to prevent a repeat.
If you want protection, get it in writing and be thorough. If you haven't specifically asked for it, you can't be upset if they haven't read your mind.
Also, beware the boilerplate contracts available online and at places like Office Depot/Staples/etc. I once taught at a decent-sized "Center for Music and Arts" that hadn't used any type of contract with its teachers then suddenly decided they would. The problem was that they had copied (poorly) one of these fill-in-the-blank contracts. A number of people just said, "Sure," and signed without reading. It offered immense protections and guarantees to the Center, and absolutely no protection or guarantee of any kind to the teachers. I re-wrote it in a form I found acceptable and submitted a signed copy with the revisions. I never heard another word about the contract, nor did they offer it to any other teacher after that (I had also pointed out the increased degree of risk they were assuming with some of the clauses).
The items you should get in writing, including, but not limited to (amending Alex F's list):
Employer's Name
Name of the person/company providing payment, if different
from "Employer"
Name of Performer(s)
Person or people to whom payment should be delivered (i.e.,
should the check be made payable to "Riverton Brass
Quintet" or Tom, Jim, Sue, Bill and Jenny?)
Time of payment
Means of delivery of payment (i.e., cash, check, electronic)
Deposit, if applicable
Terms under which deposit, or any part of it, is refundable
Determination of compensation (set or hourly)
If hourly payment, amount of time to perform and corresponding
dollar amount specified
If hourly, at a specified duration, rate of compensation if asked
to perform longer and minimum increment (i.e., "If duration
of performance exceeds agreed-upon two hours,
performer(s) must be paid for one full hour at a rate equal
to 150% of rate applied to first two hours regardless of
whether performer(s) complete an additional hour; part
equals whole such that performance for any portion of an
additional hour shall result in payment for a full hour.")
Items you're expected to provide (including, but not limited to,
sheet music, chairs, stands, lighting, wind clips)
Items the employer is providing (including, but not limited to,
items listed above, as well as refreshments, air
conditioning, shelter if outdoor, place to change clothes)
Attire, if applicable
Date, including specified day of the week and date
(i.e., "Friday, August 11, 2006")
Time
Location, including any applicable limitations on access, parking,
means of delivery or set-up)
Weather contingencies, if outdoor (temp., precipitation, etc.)
Any rescheduling options should weather contingencies apply
Breaks (number and duration, whether specific or formulaic)
Duration of set(s)
Repertoire to be included or excluded, if applicable
Basically, if you want to be sure it's covered, get it in writing. Contention arises when one party assumes the other "understands" the expectation.
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MaryAnn
- Occasionally Visiting Pipsqueak
- Posts: 3217
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:58 am
Mitch, Great Post!
When you start playing for money, and it matters because it is going to pay the rent....you start having to pay attention to this kind of thing.
Recently I put an ad in the paper looking to start a trio, but I mentioned my background (on violin/fiddle) and also mentioned recording.
I got a number of responses asking me to do studio work. The most amusing of these was from a guy who told me all the other musicians he was employing had played for all these famous artists, and how excited he was at the prospect of working with me. Well....when it got down to brass tacks nothing ensued. I'm pretty sure he was the kind of person who is trying to make you want to feel important, and whose goal is to get you to play for free. They are all over the place.
If the money matters to you, get it in writing. And then do exactly what you are contracted to do, plus just a tiny bit. Like, if you contract for 15 minute breaks, take 13 minute breaks. If the session goes overtime by five minutes, let it go. Act in a completely professional manner. Then, they may be more than happy to invite you back. At that point you are in the driver's seat and can decide if you want to go back.
MA
When you start playing for money, and it matters because it is going to pay the rent....you start having to pay attention to this kind of thing.
Recently I put an ad in the paper looking to start a trio, but I mentioned my background (on violin/fiddle) and also mentioned recording.
I got a number of responses asking me to do studio work. The most amusing of these was from a guy who told me all the other musicians he was employing had played for all these famous artists, and how excited he was at the prospect of working with me. Well....when it got down to brass tacks nothing ensued. I'm pretty sure he was the kind of person who is trying to make you want to feel important, and whose goal is to get you to play for free. They are all over the place.
If the money matters to you, get it in writing. And then do exactly what you are contracted to do, plus just a tiny bit. Like, if you contract for 15 minute breaks, take 13 minute breaks. If the session goes overtime by five minutes, let it go. Act in a completely professional manner. Then, they may be more than happy to invite you back. At that point you are in the driver's seat and can decide if you want to go back.
MA
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tofu
- 5 valves
- Posts: 1998
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:59 pm
- Location: One toke over the line...
Yes - don't you love the free gig people. One of the guys had a charity that was very dear to him personally - so we did the fundraiser gig for free as a favor to him. After that we were inundated by more charities than I knew existed. They would try to make you feel like a heel for not doing it for nothing. They pay the caters, florists, banquet hall etc. but think the musicians should play for free because it "doesn't cost you anything". Glad it isn't my day job.MaryAnn wrote:
I got a number of responses asking me to do studio work. The most amusing of these was from a guy who told me all the other musicians he was employing had played for all these famous artists, and how excited he was at the prospect of working with me. Well....when it got down to brass tacks nothing ensued. I'm pretty sure he was the kind of person who is trying to make you want to feel important, and whose goal is to get you to play for free. They are all over the place.MA
Once substituted for a guy at the very last minute in another group. Didn't know it was a free charity event. Drove 1.5 hours to the Polo Match fundraiser. It was 100 degrees in the middle of a Sunday afternoon. They had all this fancy food and beverages. We were really baking and they refused to even let us have water, but did offer we could buy a meal for $100. We quickly ditched the high brow music and played all our college football fight songs and left.
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Rick Denney
- Resident Genius
- Posts: 6650
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- Contact:
Some of the advice in this thread is very good, but it seems to me scaled for significant sums of money.
I'm not a lawyer, and to me a contract does only two things: establish expectations and provide an enforcement tool. As an enforcement tool, though, a contract means nothing outside a court of law. To enforce a contract, you have to be willing to file suit. And that costs money (even if you win, in some states). Would I file suit for payment of a $100 gig? No way--not even in small claims court. My time is worth more than that.
Mary Ann brings up a good point: It depends on whether you are earning grocery money. Most of us have day jobs and do the music for additional income or for fun (or both).
I once tried to write a contract to hire a contract music director for an amateur orchestra. By the time I felt like I'd covered all the orchestra's potential issues, and all the conductor's potential issues, it was over a dozen pages long. The idea was dashed by an older and wiser mind on the board. He said that if we thought we needed to define every aspect of the relationship in that much detail, we needed to find a different person. He was right. In the end, we put a one-page contract together outlining in plain English what was expected from each of us. We went for the first purpose of defining expectations, realizing that enforcement in court was not an option.
I'm in business and require that my clients adopt a proper business footing with me before doing work. That means a signed contract that includes the range of issues in previous responses. But the amounts are such that a breach would definitely result in a lawsuit, or at least a legal demand. And nailing down expectations is terribly difficult with most of my clients, who are government agencies.
I don't expect most musicians are much better at understanding a proper business footing. But at some point, you look the guy in the eye and decide if you trust him. Sometimes, that assessment will turn out wrong. But having a contract is a poor cure, unless the expectations are unclear, and that can be fixed on one page. If it turns out that you can't trust the guy, most of the time you'll still never get anything because of the cost of enforcement or because the reason you didn't get paid was because no money existed.
Rick "all life is a risk, but sometimes the mitigation is worse" Denney
I'm not a lawyer, and to me a contract does only two things: establish expectations and provide an enforcement tool. As an enforcement tool, though, a contract means nothing outside a court of law. To enforce a contract, you have to be willing to file suit. And that costs money (even if you win, in some states). Would I file suit for payment of a $100 gig? No way--not even in small claims court. My time is worth more than that.
Mary Ann brings up a good point: It depends on whether you are earning grocery money. Most of us have day jobs and do the music for additional income or for fun (or both).
I once tried to write a contract to hire a contract music director for an amateur orchestra. By the time I felt like I'd covered all the orchestra's potential issues, and all the conductor's potential issues, it was over a dozen pages long. The idea was dashed by an older and wiser mind on the board. He said that if we thought we needed to define every aspect of the relationship in that much detail, we needed to find a different person. He was right. In the end, we put a one-page contract together outlining in plain English what was expected from each of us. We went for the first purpose of defining expectations, realizing that enforcement in court was not an option.
I'm in business and require that my clients adopt a proper business footing with me before doing work. That means a signed contract that includes the range of issues in previous responses. But the amounts are such that a breach would definitely result in a lawsuit, or at least a legal demand. And nailing down expectations is terribly difficult with most of my clients, who are government agencies.
I don't expect most musicians are much better at understanding a proper business footing. But at some point, you look the guy in the eye and decide if you trust him. Sometimes, that assessment will turn out wrong. But having a contract is a poor cure, unless the expectations are unclear, and that can be fixed on one page. If it turns out that you can't trust the guy, most of the time you'll still never get anything because of the cost of enforcement or because the reason you didn't get paid was because no money existed.
Rick "all life is a risk, but sometimes the mitigation is worse" Denney