Instrument repair

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:30 pm

This is going to be an interesting thread! (I hope) Since I didn't start doing repair work professionally until late in life, I don't have much of an opinion other than to do repair work, you either have it or you don't. Copius amounts of schooling won't make much difference if you don't have the aptitude.

A direct answer to your question would be the result of the following information:

- How much does a repairman make after two years of on-the-job training?
- How much does a repairman make after two years of formal schooling?
- How much does a repairman make after six years of an appreticeship?
- How much does a repairman make after two years of schooling and four years on the job?

Don't say that money doesn't matter. There's no such thing as a 'labor of love' until the kids are through college!

smurphius · Post by **smurphius** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:37 pm

I am considering studying with the local repairman here as I've come to find there is a HUGE shortage in instrument repairmen!!

I've always considered a career in teaching, but this is a very fascinating and worthwhile field.

I'd be interested to hear other repairmen's suggestions/stories/ideas.

pulseczar · Post by **pulseczar** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:59 pm

harold wrote:
There are several hundred bone head repair guys that are making money and not really doing very much. Recognize that tuba and euphonium repairs may seem rather glamorous, but the actual number of shops that repair or restore more than 25 tubas or euphoniums a year can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

In reality, to make a living you should really learn to repad clarinets.

I agree. I'm not sure about brass instruments, but I know there are alot of bullsh!t ways to make a woodwind instrument work. It's the true repairmen who know how to keep the instrument in order for a number of years to come.

Plus it seems like everybody and their grandma plays clarinet/sax.

My route to repairing was perfect timing. It was spring time and I asked the local repairman for some work. Realizing that he needed work for summer (when schools etc send their horns away) he trained me as long as I promised to stay during the summer.

Kenton · Post by **Kenton** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:30 am

I'm sort of like Dan, I didn't get into repair until after I retired from my first career. And, I have the retirement income to provide a steady income. The give me some freedom to work at things until I'm satisfied, and not having to worry about billable hours.

And, as Dan said, I also believe it is a matter of either you have it, or you don't. But, even so, it is not going to be profitable for a while because there are a lot of 1) specialized tools that you need and 2) there also tools that you need that are not specialized but it is hard to tell that until you already put the money down for the one from the music supply company, 3) you simply are not going to work very efficiently at the beginning.

Because I chose to do what I wanted to do rather than chase the paycheck, I opted to only do brass repair. But, I do think that there is probably more money in woodwinds.

My friends who work for larger musical companies seem to have to many aggravations that I do not have working in my own place for myself. But, then the larger companies offer enough of a range of services and products that they have an easier time getting schools as customers.

I think the industry tends to try to keep a closed shop and and that may be one of the reasons that some advocate for formal training. However, when queried on the advancement of the formally trained within organizations, it seems like they don't do any better than others.

Personally, I think the preferred route to go is to find an informal short apprenticeship with someone in the type of setup that you want to have. (I found a guy who had his own shop, who was willing to mentor me.)

To a certain degree, it has to be a labor of love. You have to provide quality first. And, then secondly, you need to find a way to make it profitable.

manatee · Post by **manatee** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:13 pm

I had seriously considered this field and had done a lot of research after I was retired by my employer due to medical reasons.
1. I was very enthusiastic, but was discouraged by one of the major schools as he did not want a disabled person in the class(es). Screw him, I said, the school will admit me because they have to.
2. I was discouraged by a master repairman as you have to be a bit of a used car salesman. . . promote, promote, promote. He said it was a lot of work and if you were to work for someone else, there were a lot of unscrupulous fellows preying upon the good repairpersons.
Finally I asked my doctor if my shoulder could handle the job. He said that my pain was chronic and would only get worse.
Look at your Body.
Finally,Best advice. . . It's like being a vetrenarian in that the customer will want their dog (or horn), fixed, but only up to a certain monetary number, and no more.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:32 am

manatee wrote:..... Look at your Body....

THAT's no joke! When I set up my shop a few years ago, I bought a bunch of used equipment from a fellow who was getting out of the business. When I arrived to pick it up, he remarked that he was glad to see that I am a pretty good sized guy. It takes a lot of energy to whack tubas and sousas back into shape. At 240 pounds , I've seen days when I could have used an additional few pounds!

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:43 am

TubaTinker wrote:
manatee wrote:..... Look at your Body....
THAT's no joke! When I set up my shop a few years ago, I bought a bunch of used equipment from a fellow who was getting out of the business. When I arrived to pick it up, he remarked that he was glad to see that I am a pretty good sized guy. It takes a lot of energy to whack tubas and sousas back into shape. At 240 pounds , I've seen days when I could have used an additional few pounds!

Cool!!! Screw me!!! (not literally please, im not into the big guns myself)

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:49 pm

XtremeEuph wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:
manatee wrote:..... Look at your Body....
THAT's no joke! When I set up my shop a few years ago, I bought a bunch of used equipment from a fellow who was getting out of the business. When I arrived to pick it up, he remarked that he was glad to see that I am a pretty good sized guy. It takes a lot of energy to whack tubas and sousas back into shape. At 240 pounds , I've seen days when I could have used an additional few pounds!

Cool!!! Screw me!!! (not literally please, im not into the big guns myself)

must be something in the translation

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:53 pm

Remember that pictorial on trumpet making?

http://www.zacharymusic.com/Zachary_Music/Factory.htm

Scroll down to the section titled "Buffing". You will be spending an inordinate amount of time doing this. Think about what your back's going to feel like after holding some high school's entire line of sousaphones up to the buffing wheel.

Ask any of the repair pros on this BBS.

The clever inventor who figures out a way to remove solder stains and bring up a jewel finish with no manual effort will make a fortune for him/herself as well as having her/his name ivenerated by generations of repair techs.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:28 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:The clever inventor who figures out a way to remove solder stains and bring up a jewel finish with no manual effort will make a fortune for him/herself as well as having her/his name ivenerated by generations of repair techs.

I suspect that this could easily be done now with robotics, several million dollars and using several days for each instrument, mostly to reprogram the robots. The really clever inventor will figure out how to do this cheaply and quickly.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:59 pm

Mark wrote:
Chuck(G) wrote:The clever inventor who figures out a way to remove solder stains and bring up a jewel finish with no manual effort will make a fortune for him/herself as well as having her/his name ivenerated by generations of repair techs.

I suspect that this could easily be done now with robotics, several million dollars and using several days for each instrument, mostly to reprogram the robots. The really clever inventor will figure out how to do this cheaply and quickly.

I spent over 30 years as a sales engineer/designer in the automation industry. Most of the tasks that are now automated are pretty simple relative to the subjective decisions that a human can make. In order for robotics to be applied, as task has to be reduced to objective terms... a process that is sometimes length, very expensive, or downright impossible. I can't imagine robots and programming ever being able to determine if all the solder is gone from a brass part without the over-thinning of the substrate. I suppose buffing away solder stains COULD be done with a sophisticated vision system and loads of programming... but it certainly wouldn't be cost effective in terms of what a human can do. How much an hour is Asian labor these days? (Actually, solder stains CAN be removed chemically.)

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:57 pm

TubaTinker wrote:I suppose buffing away solder stains COULD be done with a sophisticated vision system and loads of programming... but it certainly wouldn't be cost effective in terms of what a human can do.

Exactly my point. It's even too costly for manufacturers to do.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:35 pm

Actually, what I had in mind was a jar full of nannites...

sloan · Post by **sloan** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:36 am

Mark wrote:
Chuck(G) wrote:The clever inventor who figures out a way to remove solder stains and bring up a jewel finish with no manual effort will make a fortune for him/herself as well as having her/his name ivenerated by generations of repair techs.

I suspect that this could easily be done now with robotics, several million dollars and using several days for each instrument, mostly to reprogram the robots. The really clever inventor will figure out how to do this cheaply and quickly.

Cheap and quick? Hire humans.

prototypedenNIS · Post by **prototypedenNIS** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:41 am

Chuck(G) wrote:The clever inventor who figures out a way to remove solder stains and bring up a jewel finish with no manual effort will make a fortune for him/herself as well as having her/his name ivenerated by generations of repair techs.

some bits of advice... don't make the stains in the first place (or make them tiny). Overdoing solder is counterproductive to the bond anyway.
use a solder scraper for the bulk of removal
then:

tripoli to cut, rouge to gloss
touch up with lacquer

BTW, used saxophone pads can make great dremel buffing wheels

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:54 am

Does using a dremel mean that I can sell my 3/4 hp buffer and never have to wrestle another tuba against the wheel again?

I find that using an air-powered die grinder with a 2" wheel goes much faster than a little Dremel on tubas. It's just about as lightweight (less than 2 lbs) and packs a lot more power:

I'm sure that a lot of folks also use Foredom tools--more power than a dremel.

I'm sure that there are other approaches. But the simple fact remains that when working on the typical abused school instrument (where most of the typical tech's trade will come from), one can expect to do a lot of soldering and dent work--with the attendant cleanup inside the "red cloud".

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:58 am

prototypedenNIS wrote:
Chuck(G) wrote:The clever inventor who figures out a way to remove solder stains and bring up a jewel finish with no manual effort will make a fortune for him/herself as well as having her/his name ivenerated by generations of repair techs.
some bits of advice... don't make the stains in the first place (or make them tiny). Overdoing solder is counterproductive to the bond anyway.
use a solder scraper for the bulk of removal
then:
tripoli to cut, rouge to gloss
touch up with lacquer

BTW, used saxophone pads can make great dremel buffing wheels

'cept on silver plate

It's nearly impossible to buff solder off of silver plate without removing the silver, too.

On silver plate, it's important to keep the solder only where you want it... not all over the horn. Silver LOVES lead. Keep the solder to a minimum and never use solder on silver that has more than 40% lead content. Lots of the modern soldering is done with lead-free materials, but there are still lots of guys around doing it the 'old way'... myself included.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:09 pm

TubaTinker wrote:On silver plate, it's important to keep the solder only where you want it... not all over the horn. Silver LOVES lead. Keep the solder to a minimum and never use solder on silver that has more than 40% lead content. Lots of the modern soldering is done with lead-free materials, but there are still lots of guys around doing it the 'old way'... myself included.

Dan, do you ever soft-solder with anything other than 70 Sn/30 Pb solder? I've got a couple of rolls of 50-50 here, but I never cared for the way it flows--kind of like that "lead free" stuff.

Sometimes, it's possible to use a permanent magic marker or "solder resist" to keep solder corralled on a silver instrument.

pulseczar · Post by **pulseczar** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:22 pm

I use 50-50 because you can sorta "measure" how much solder is applied before it sucks into the joint. On certain applications like small ferrules I would use 63/37 because it has no plastic point and it makes life a bit quicker and painless.

As for cleaning up, a paper towel to get the majority, and then buff the rest out.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:06 pm

pulseczar wrote: On certain applications like small ferrules I would use 63/37 because it has no plastic point and it makes life a bit quicker and painless.

I use 63/37 for most everything. It's easy to work with and if I run low, I can pick it up at Hobby Lobby... or just about anywere that handles craft supplies. It's the same stuff folks use for stained-glass work... and the lower lead content helps keep silver finishes clean.

For cracks and places where extra strength is necessary, the silver bearing stuff is the way to go. It's plastic about like 63/37 and is about six times as strong. The downside is if you get it where you do not want it, it's TEN times as tough to get off!

For things that I know I'll NEVER have to take apart again.... and where ultimate strength is required, 35% silver brazing alloy is the ticket.