Small C in brass band?

[iiipopes]

Hey, Chuck(G), we probably agree on what a euph should sound like, but the bass has more "grit in the gizzard" than a euph should have.

[tofu]

2) The BBb's do have a .730 valve set, but because the leadpipe is so short, and the throat is large in comparison to the bell flare, it plays much more open than the bore measurement out of context would suggest. And when using the Wick 1 mouthpiece designed for it, it is a true bass tone, albeit a different philosophical concept of bass tone, as it has to have enough overtones to knit the rest of the band together, and it is definitely not an "overgrown euphonium" in any sense of the word or imagination. It is not a broad orchestral tone to support 100 other instrumentalists. It is not the Conn wooly concert band tone of the 2XJ.

...all of what you say is why I describe it as a "big euphonium". It's not by any stretch of the imagination what you'd get with a big Holton or Conn. I characterize the sound as "sweet" and not woofy or diffuse. Maybe we just disagree on what a euphonium should sound like.

I think Chuck as hit it on the head. I too have a '71 Besson New Standard BBb and that is exactly how I would describe the sound. I think the use of this type of horn along with the Eb is one of the things that gives a true British Brass Band that unique blend and bass sound that you just don't hear in other groups.

I sure know if I used my Rudy or King 2341 it would create a much different blend. I know that when I play the Besson it has always sounded to me like a really big Euph.

[iiipopes]

In other contexts, when broken down with wave analyzer, when "sweet" is used as an adjective to describe sound, it usually means there is a good balance of even overtones to the fundamental. Tube amplifiers, with their even overtone distortion, are usually referred to in this matter, as well as "warm," and as opposed to a lot of solid state amplifiers which merely clip the tone, inducing odd overtones, and are perceived as bright, harsh, or edgy. I definitely agree with that part of it, since the overtones are what knit the band together. I believe you would also agree that "warm" is also a good adjective to describe Besson or brass band bass tone.

But a lot of times, "sweet" can also mean either lacking in fundamental or precise articulation, while still having a tone that can be easily listened to without tiring the ear. That aspect of it I do not agree, at all. When I say "grit in the gizzard," I am meaning good solid articulation with enough sibilant, and possibly non-harmonic tones, which are also present to some degree, which are necessary for good articulation on tuba, and contrast to some schools of thought in which any non-harmonic sibilant or tone is downplayed for a legato, indeed some might even say mellifluous, tone that is sought by euphonium players.

I also agree that unlike tubas in other genres, the Besson and other brass band tubas and euphs, in accordance with their saxhorn origins, were/are constructed along similar methods with similar valve placement, bugles, tapers and flares, so there is at least a mechanical basis for some similarity of tone.

I just still think a superlative tuba and tubist sound different from a superlative euph and euphonist, and not just in pitch.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

The brass band I participate in will this Tuesday finally have settled with our bass section equipment. Two HB-2Ps on Eb and two Holton 345s on the BBb. I know the purests will have an opinion about using CC on the Eb and that is okay but for us the justafication of purchasing more expensive instrument is simply not strong enough. I do feel however that these two types of horns have enough contrast and are nimble enough that we are capable of producing our own unique bass section sound. In my opinion, the pppp and fff should be very exciting for player and listener alike.

Dan, perchance are the CC players unable to read Bb treble clef? In my experience, this is why someone with a CC generally ends up on the Eb part. This isn't meant as a slight, but a real-life observation.

Surely, there have to be some Eb tuba players in Seattle!

No, Not many Eb players that are available and can read treble. I started on the cornet and can read treble but it can screw your head up a bit after playing in band or quintet but thems the breaks. Its easy to read the Eb on CC and we like the sound. If folks want to get snooty about it, we ask them if they want pay for the horns and then you here a different tune. This area requires a bit of a commute and the number of available and able players is not as large as one might think. Still, we are very happy with the gang we have put together. In my mind, it is all about having fun while performing the best music you are able with the best folks at hand.


Daniel C. Oberloh

[Lew]

I'm in a small brass band with 2 tuba players. I play the Eb parts on my Besson 983 and the BBb parts are being played by someone with a large B&S CC tuba. The mix works as far as I'm concerned, but he does have trouble reading BBb treble clef on his CC sometimes. I think it would be easier if I were to play the BBb parts on a BBb and he played the Eb parts on his CC, but the sound wouldn't be the same.

If someone already had a CC tuba, like the HB 2Ps that Dan mentioned, I could see that it would be too expensive to get Eb tubas just for this one group. OTOH, if one were looking for a new tuba, a new Yamaha CC 621 will cost as much or more than many new Eb tubas available, making it a different question.

[iiipopes]

And just in case anyone thinks I am an ideolog or worse, when some people in the local lodge band asked me about what to do about horns when there are no real tenor horns or baritones in this part of the country, not to mention an Eb sop cornet, I suggested, I could, and then actually did rewrite the Eb sop for clarinet, and alto and tenor saxophones could play the tenor and bari horn parts, and if the tuba parts diverged, we could get an Eb bari sax player to play those.

The original question on the forum was people's opinions about using CC tubas for brass band tuba parts. So, to restate my opinion, I think, in terms of preference, the idea develops a strong vacuum in a short straw. But as a practical matter in the Midwest, you're lucky to get anybody or anything to actually cover a part, and if the part can get played, there's one less hole to fill, and therefore, one notch better it sounds, regardless of who or what is playing it, to the better enjoyment and edification of all. I'd rather hear someone blow the part on a kazoo than have a hole in the texture.

Now please excuse me while I go listen to a little ibowtie.com/live365 internet brass band broadcast before I go to bed.

BTW Black Dyke won the 2006 British Open. No surprise. The surprise was the dark horse who came in second. You can read all about it at 4barsrest.com

[Chuck(G)]

No, Not many Eb players that are available and can read treble. I started on the cornet and can read treble but it can screw your head up a bit after playing in band or quintet but thems the breaks.

Nah, just keep the trumpet Arban's on your music stand at home and you'll be fine.

You're with Puget Brass, right? So that's what, three brass bands in Washington? BBNW, Spokane British Brass Band and Puget?

[Wyvern]

If I got a smaller C to use on Eb parts and also in quintets,...

What would be a good mouthpiece to use for an "Eb sound"?

I would suggest trying a Bach 24AW, or a Denis Wick 3L. Both popular in brass bands