Is a York Master really a York?

[Rick Denney]

First time that I have heard this. Jacobs Yorks were built in the 1930's. What was specific about the type of brass used?

I've heard it, but I don't buy it (with respect to Brian). The CSO Yorks were made in 1929 or 1930, by the way. Jacobs was born in 1915, and attended Curtis at age 15, which makes his first time there in 1930. Donatelli already owned the York at that time. They were actually made soon after Pop Johnson became one of the owners of York after buying outu the York family in 1927.

I've heard that the brass then used was not nearly as pure. I've heard that Pop Johnson walked hung brass sheets and whacked 'em to hear the ring. But I think it's like Strads, which are thought to be magic because of the age of the wood. It's not so--the difference is that Strads had all sorts of assymetries that nobody will build into a violin these days, except for those who have actually measured up real ones to duplicate them without trying to "update" the design.

I'll bet that the York magic, whatever that is, has to do with shape (including thickness, perhaps, though the magic hasn't faded with extreme buffing that must have materially changed the thickness) and, to a much lesser extent, how the brass is worked. But the best information I've seen is that Yorks used the same cartridge brass as everyone else, and that has nearly identical alloy proportions as modern yellow brass.

Nobody ever said York Masters had the York magic or were built or designed by Johnson. I would like to think that they used some of the York mandrels, but I think that lore has been pretty conclusively dispelled. York Masters are similar but not similar enough to have come from any of the same tooling. And they were never built to be big--the 6/4 Yorks of old were never represented in the York Master line. Big tubas like that were not the flavor of the month in the post-war period when Carl Fischer (who owned the York brand) hired B&M to make York Masters.

Rick "who thinks the YM is as Yorkish as any other 4/4 imitation, and no more" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I'd really like to hear what Mr. Nirschl has to say about this. The last thing that I heard was that he said something to the effect of his involvement in was B&M too late to know much about how the YM came about.

I corresponded with Mr. Nirschl about the YM, and could not get him to admit knowing anything at all about them. In his words, he was "much too young".

We have tubas with a range of copper contents, and the differences reported don't seem to me to encompass what makes a York Yorkish.

The B&S GR-41, however, has been reported by several as being very similar to actual 4/4 Yorks, right down to the (for some unmanageable) intonation quirks. I'll bet that they fall into the pattern of variability represented by real Yorks, despite being made from modern brass. The one that I played was not much like the YM, however, being smaller in many key dimensions. Of course, it was a C, and modeled on 4/4 York C's from the middle 30's.

But you are right--the YM has different shapes throughout, though arranged to follow a similar plan. It was not built to spec, but rather to concept.

Rick "thinking it doesn't diminish the value of the YM" Denney

[Bandmaster]

There are several types of Yorks:

Grand Rapids Yorks designed by Bill Johnson using a specific type of brass from around 1910 to 1935. These are the prized Yorks.

OK, what about the "stencil" horns that I have seen and heard about, like USA Line and the Grand Rapids Instrument Company? I have read many accounts saying that these were actually made by the York factory. The thing that I have noticed about them is that these stencil horns seem to have the main tuning slide in the leadpipe while the "real" Yorks have the tuning slide after the valves. The rest of these stencil horns look to be identical or VERY close to the actual Yorks. So... were they made in the same "way" but just have a few subtle differences, or were they just cheap horns made with lower quality control? If you bought one of these old USA Line tubas and converted it with a modern valve set will it have the classic "York" sound too?

Examples below - USA Line (left) - York Catalog - Real York BBb (right)

[Chuck(G)]

Yes, the GRBI and USA Line horns used the bells and large branches of the standard York line. I think the tuning slide in the leadpipe was to distinguish them as primarily student instruments. (Pan American tubas also are often found configured similarly in contrast to main line Conn instruments.).

Was there ever a 6/4 USA Line BBb, though? I''ve only seen 4/4 models.

[Bandmaster]

Was there ever a 6/4 USA Line BBb, though? I''ve only seen 4/4 models.

Well.... what do you call the one on the left in the photo above? I emailed the seller when that one was on eBay a few month back, and the measurements he gave showed it to be a monster BBb. As you can see by the engraving on the bell, it is definately a USA Line stencil.

[brianf]

I don't believe that someone would unroll sheet brass and hit it with anything to decide what to use to make tubas. This is an urban legend and unless someone can show me something signed by Mr. Johnson stating that he did this, it is probably fiction.

I heard these stories and had doubts. I talked to Ed Livingston at the ISU regional about this. Seems as a kid, he grew up near the York factory and said he made a few trips to South Bend with Bill Johnson where he was selective about the brass and did bring out a hammer to check the ring. Bill Johnson is gone but Ed's still kicking! Amazing what information you get trading a York tshirt!

About the mandrels-

No one said that these were from the original Yorks or the Carl Fischer Yorks.

Stencil horns -

Yep, Grand Rapids Band Instruments are Yorks but were these student horns? Laquer instead of silver? I had a 1910 Holton E flat that was made by York, it was laquer - played good but out of tune.

[UDELBR]

Was there ever a 6/4 USA Line BBb, though? I''ve only seen 4/4 models.

Well.... what do you call the one on the left in the photo above? I emailed the seller when that one was on eBay a few month back, and the measurements he gave showed it to be a monster BBb. As you can see by the engraving on the bell, it is definately a USA Line stencil.

I ended up with that horn (the Grand Rapids, on the left in your picture). I don't know what it says in the old York catalogs, but it'd be hard to describe it as 6/4 or Monster. Notice in this picture- left to right is my Nirschl/York, then the body of the Grand Rapids (from your picture), then the body of an HB2P (never did like that horn!).



The Grand Rapids: I'm in the process of flipping it, fixing it up, changing it to CC, and sticking on my temporary project valve set. You probably saw on the ebay listing: one of the bows was rife with spider cracks, and had a fair sized hole! The top bow also has spider cracks as well. After consulting with some of the craftsmen on this board, it seems the culprit may have been a bad batch of brass! So much for Pop Johnson and his magic hammer!

[Chuck(G)]

Since no one's coming out and actually saying it, a "Monster" BBb (not to be confused with the 19" Monster Eb) has a 22.5" bell. I've never seen a USA Line horn with that big of an upright bell.

[windshieldbug]

Since no one's coming out and actually saying it, a "Monster" BBb (not to be confused with the 19" Monster Eb) has a 22.5" bell. I've never seen a USA Line horn with that big of an upright bell.

But a fair number of the Monster Eb size have turned up...

The York forum moderator at Horn-u-copiahas also said that when he was at York, working for Bill Johnson (before & after they sold to Fischer), GRBIC horns came down the same lines, and were made by the same people; that it [the name] was merely a marketing ploy to sell more horns.

[Chuck(G)]

But a fair number of the Monster Eb size have turned up...

Sure--consider that the bell and bottom bow are shared between the Monster Eb and the 4/4 BBb, so you'd have tons of these things around. Similarly, the Monster Bell is used on the BBb helicons, both in its York and GRBI versions.

And the design was common enough that the two parts (bell and bottom bow) are interchangeable with Holton and King big Eb instruments, (although King made their bell 20" not 19"). I suspect there's a bunch of other minor makers who used the same design for their monster Eb instruments.

That makes me wonder if the "Monster Eb" design may not have originated at York.

The 19" bell and bottom bow was ubiquitous, but the 22.5" bell and associated parts is a different story.

[windshieldbug]

The bell on my Holton BBb Monster Helicon is also the 22.5".

When I wrote to the Holton factory while I was still in school, I only gave them the serial number. They wrote back and told me what year it had been made (1912), and that it was a Monster bore without me having described it to them, other than it was BBb.

[Chuck(G)]

The bell on my Holton BBb Monster Helicon is also the 22.5"

No surprise there. You can interchange the larger parts on the big Holton and York 6/4 BBb from that period. I suspect that they were made by one or the other company. Given that Holton was moving during that period, I suspect it was probably York.

[tofu]

The bell on my Holton BBb Monster Helicon is also the 22.5".

When I wrote to the Holton factory while I was still in school, I only gave them the serial number. They wrote back and told me what year it had been made (1912), and that it was a Monster bore without me having described it to them, other than it was BBb.

My Holton Eb Helicon has a 20 inch bell -- would this make it a Monster Eb?

My 1913 Buescher Eb tuba has a 20 inch bell also but I don't know if they called it a Monster size back then. It sounds like a small contrabass.

[Chuck(G)]

My 1913 Buescher Eb tuba has a 20 inch bell also but I don't know if they called it a Monster size back then. It sounds like a small contrabass.

It seems that back then, just about everyone had a big Eb; Conn even had it in a Pan-American. I suspect that many brands were made from the same pattern.