What happened to humility?

[GC]

RE: a previous post

Who did the song, "Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble"?

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble
When you're perfect in every way
I look at myself in the mirror
'Cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man
Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble
But We're doing the best that We can

[sc_curtis]

Harold,

You've said some very interesting things that sometimes I agree with, and sometimes not. This is one of those times where I respectfully disagree with you.

It is an insane notion that an orchestra, or even worse, a prominent figure from that orchestra, would choose "the girl" just for publicity. It is also insulting to the orchestra, its musical director, the committee, and particularly for the person sitting next to her. I know I would choose the one I would rather sit next to and play music with, and I suspect his preferences aren't much different.

As with any audition, YES, Carol is not the only one who could have been very successful playing there. She has done some very remarkable things before this appointment (look up a few posts to see), so this shouldn't even be discussed. I think it is in very poor taste to try and discredit her, or diminish her accomplishments.

If this had been someone who hasn't won any competitions, or never advanced in any other auditions, you would MAYBE have a legitimate argument. Maybe not.

Carol holds that position now, no matter how much you piss and moan about it.

[Tubadork]

oh yeah I just remembered
Chris Hall Met Orchestra
won the job right after being in civic
and for that matter
Mike Roylance won the job soon after civic and was featured in an ITEA article being called a young lion
oh but Harold, I guess you heard both of them and they weren't the best best player they must have just chosen them becuase because they were boys (even thought the ENTIRE Met audition was behind a screen).
So iguess what you are saying is that the only people who can win big jobs are old crusty guys who have been kicking around for a while,

From Doug Yeo's Website:
Just because a person plays in one orchestra doesn't mean he will be able to play an audition up to the standards of another orchestra. Further, this doesn't allow less experienced players a chance at a job they might rightfully win. Everyone who wins a job does so with little or no experience at some time in their career. Consider the following examples:


Eric Carlson: North Carolina Symphony - Baltimore Symphony - Philadelphia Orchestra
John Engelkes: Baltimore Symphony - San Francisco Symphony
David Herring: Florida Gulf Coast Symphony - Minnesota Orchestra
Thomas Klaber: Detroit Symphony - Cleveland Orchestra
Steven Norrell: Phoenix Symphony - Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
Charles Vernon: Baltimore Symphony - San Francisco Symphony - Philadelphia Orchestra - Chicago Symphony
Douglas Yeo: Baltimore Symphony - Boston Symphony
In each case, the player had little or no professional orchestral experience to list on his resume when he auditioned for his first job but was given the chance to play and won.

or does this not count because it's trombone?
whatever,
Bill

[windshieldbug]

1. How painful is the audition process? Is it painful enough that you might be willing to make a compromise decision just to get the process over with?

The audition seems painful, but that's because its just like have every interview you're going to have on the same day, back to back. It does take up quite a bit of time and preparation, but in that respect it actually makes it easier to compare one with another.

This committee actually has already shown a willingness to do whatever it takes, having had one unsuccessful audition before, and that included current subs, and working players from Europe, many of which have shown by working with THIS orchestra that they are good enough to do the job successfully. The committee was obviously looking for more than good enough.

2. Who actually makes the hiring decision? Is it the committee? What if the Musical Director doesn't agree with the committee's decision? Does the personnel director have any input? How substantial is it?

Depends on how their contract is worded, and I don't recall Philly's, but you could probably find out from ICSOM. Our contract gave us 51% of the vote, so if the entire committee disagreed with the Music Director it went in our favor. Some are entirely musician run (like Vienna), and some give the Music Director 51%, so that the committee is, in effect, a recommending body.

The Personnel Manager is not like Human Resources. They had no input into our audition process as to who we selected to audition, or in the selection process itself. This was entirely musical, and concerned the Music Director olny in that respect. Given orchestra make-ups, I doubt that representation would even be an issue, unless you're Berlin, and even then, you're still not American...

3. Does the audition committee only base their recommendation on the prospect's ability to play or do other factors come into the equation like his or her ability to get along with others?

It is simply musical. The ability to adjust, get along, prove that one's performance level IS what was shown is what the probation period is for.

4. Would an audition committee make a recommendation for some reason OTHER than the ability to play in a group?

Not that I can think of, except in maybe a negative sense once the screens are off ("Oh, this is the guy that is suing the last FIVE orchestras he played with, and he always plays with his back to the conductor and the audience. His EARS are great, though... ")

5. Would age EVER be a factor in an audition? For example would a committee ever recommend that a younger player be hired instead of an older one because of the length of time the player theoretically might be available is longer?

I've never heard anything like that. In fact, if someone was even THINKING that, it would probably be the opposite, like " ...if I screw this up and they make tenure, I'll have to play with them until I retire... "

6. Would an audition committee ever recommend a player that didn't necessarily have the right sound, but the committee thought that he or she would be more malleable?

Only if they were playing alloys... Seriously, again, I can only think it may be opposite, like "What if this person grow to be a person I can't stand?"

7. Would a candidate ever be disqualified if the committee thought that the player were just using this specific orchestra as a stepping stone to another gig?

In ROPA orchestras, that's exactly what you ARE looking for. In Philly, as a "stepping stone" to what? Nobody in Philly that I know is thinking of that orchestra as a vehicle... they've spent their whole CAREERS trying to get there!

8. From an audition committee standpoint, how aware are the members of the fiscal position of the group and how might that play into their decisionmaking process? Would a committee recommend a good player that might accept a union minimum salary instead of a great player that might try to max out the pay schedule?

Well, I'm sure that the players are painfully aware of the fiscal situations, but that has more to do with their retirement than with future players. The committee is there to make musical recommendations only. The player's salaries are such a small part of an over-all budget that it has NEVER entered into anyone's conciousness. (well, never is such a total word, but certainly nowhere I've been... ) There's hall expenses, Association and office staff, Music Directors and Guest Conductors... and some orchestras have full endowments besides! Again, the opposite is more likely true; if you even considered it, a young player would likely run afoul of seniority pay issues (if they even have any, and I've never played anywhere there are).

It is the committee's job to make a musical recommendation ONLY. Anything else would have to be negotiated between the office and the player, but if the musician was in a position to ask for over-scale, they would likely be moving DOWN, not UP.

9. Would a committee ever consider a candidate that was a solid player instead of a candidate that was an exceptional player if for some reason that the first might be somehow capable of generating additional press or more dollars?

NO, not the committee, OR the Music Director. If successful, they may have to play, record, and live on tour with this person for a long, long time.

Buy once there, should the front office take every advantage of the opportunity they've been handed? I hope so, or they're not doing their jobs, by a long shot!

10. Being very realistic, do you honestly feel that the audition process is in fact the best way to find members for a group? Should a decision really be made on how a candidate plays on one specific day instead of looking at the entire body of their work? What if their audition is the only great day that they ever have? Isn't it possible to eliminate some great players because the happened to have an off-day?

Of course it may not always be fair. But it works pretty damn well, and I've never been able to come up with anything better. The Probation Period should weed out anyone that scraped through, although I find THAT unlikely. They will have played behind a screen, then with section players (who, themselves, know what quality sounds like), and often, even performed a Series with the orchestra. Only great day? Hardly likely.

The body of work is the criterae into the audition. It is not practical to have a knowledgable listener attend multiple concerts by the candidate before the audition, and even then, you still would not know how the conductor entered into their performance. You can, however, read resume's and listen to tapes, which ARE an auditionee's work.

By that same standard, what if a candidate doesn't interview well? Rather than an inflated resume' or promises like "I'm really, really quick at picking up things, wouldn't you like the opportunity to observe a candidate at work in a meeting with peers, subordinates, or a full project cycle?

11. As a member of an audition committee, what personality traits are most important in the candidate? Is humility among them?

The purpose of the committee is musical. Personality traits don't enter into it at all, unless the candidate insults the bass trombone (and hey- who wouldn't? ) as they are setting up. Ability to play well with others is the Probation. And I've played with some real SOB's whose music more than made up for their personalities. And that's the great thing about a rehearsal. You get to go home when its done!

[thedeep42]

I'd really like to thank the people involved in this discussion and i'm really glad the points were raised. I've learned a lot. As with many, i feel it important to add my two cents such as they are.

Industry people tend to hire people based on who most closely fits their needs. It would seem to me that having a great deal of interest in your job post (no matter if most of it is crap) would be an asset, meaning you've done your press well and that you have a greater chance of getting the right person for your job.

The reason as to why the most qualified or experienced person doesn't get the job is often tied into the question of why bad things happen to good people and vice versa. My father was head of a university geology department when the school decided that due to finances (and a collapse in jobs in that field in the 80's) they would close it out. He's never come close to having that kind of job again due to age, no availability, and being tied to a family. He is MORE than qualified (not just because he's my daddy)... my ex's dad worked for compaq till HP bought it, downsized him after 30 years with the company (kept his wife and son)...he now drives for fed ex. yep. it sucks.

I've been told many times that it doesn't matter how many letters you have after your name, some wunderkind may well come along that played the vaughn williams when they were 12 and plays flight of the bumble-bee blindfolded, suspended by their toenails, in their sleep, on an ophicleid. if they happen to be 'right for the job' and you have a history of playing the meistersinger solo randomly from the balcony at mozart concerts..you're history. it's the business.

I've talked to a lot of players.. the 'who-you-know factor' is huge. I know of several players that Arnold Jacobs (to name one) hooked up with their first job based on his recommendation alone. Most people that i've met that have won auditions consider themselves extremely fortunate to have that position and work hard to justify it. If you think you are the best and got the job because you DESERVED it, you may be in for a reality check. If you don't go out to find work because you don't believe you're qualified enough...that's another problem (as aforementioned).

Tenure...being the best... one of the most interesting conversations I have ever had took place when i happened to meet an aging conductor that has been music director with some of the most reputable orchestras in the world. I mentioned to him my ambitions for tuba playing, he said

"Great, you should come audition for my orchestra. We're auditioning currently. There is a great shortage of good tuba players in the world." (something that seemed to fly contrary to what i hear in communities like this. it got me thinking) I didn't audition. I didn't yet OWN a tuba or know an excerpt. He's not really the joking type. I could have auditioned. At that time it would have been a waste of my time and money...but still.

He then proceeded to tell me about a tuba player that had been at a job for 20+ years (admittedly experienced and qualified) that he had been trying to 'get rid of' for much of that time (citing laziness and inflexibility) Doing the math, I figured out that this could not be anyone but a VERY esteemed member of the tuba community with tons of success in the tuba world. Who is right or wrong in this scenario? This tuba player deserved that job, but apparently had a sound and an attitude contrary to the director's needs. Both came from different schools and low brass ideologies. I haven't researched him enough to find out what circumstances led to his moving (probably friendly enough). The director also moved back to europe and continues to do well.

Young players need people to look up to that have gone before them and done amazing things, especially early on. Look at sports for instance! Young people who overcame the odds stand out and amaze. It's a pretty old theme. If I'm guaranteed to come out of school and have no hope of getting the job close to one i dreamed of without putting in 10-15 years of drudgery, why bother? (i suppose we still need doctors though) There are places where you can do much better on unemployment or disability than you could working several minimum wage jobs a week and trying to keep up with the area's standard of living. You could even be at home to take care of your kids...perish the thought. I'd say we need those dreams.

Young people KNOW the odds are terrible. Having little to lose can be annoyingly impowering. Again, I've been educated by reading this dialogue. Thanks Harold, I'm really glad you stepped up to the plate on this one. I may not fully agree with you, but I see your point. Anyway, you can't buy much for $0.02 these days. But there they are. See you folks at auditions in a couple years. Cheers.

[TexTuba]

I personally know dozens of better players - they just don't have the Philly job.

The thing that is most noticable about the fact that she won is that she didn't solely rely on her playing to get the gig. She manipulated a fairly sophisticated system and was successful. There is no doubt that she is a good player, but there are others that objectively are better.

I really don't see the issue with young people sending tapes to orchestra auditions (granted I may be biased )

This is exactly the problem.


It is all a matter of experience. This is something that you can't recognize until you have it. Maturation as a playert is based on time behind a horn and appropriate instruction. This can come at a young age, but it is exceptionally rare - despite the belief of every 17 year old instrumentalist in the country.

It is more about the audacity of younger players that probably aren't smart enough to recognize their limitations.

Is there even a remote possibility that gender played a role in the Phily audition in order to get some substantial airplay and perhaps fill up the seats? How much press time has been spent on the fact that she is a woman that happens to play tuba?

No possibility at all?

Wow! Regardless of what you think about Sumner or Carol (or any other one who's won a job and you think someone else is better) THEY WON THE JOB! Your friends didn't, big deal. It is simply your opinion about whether they were the best or not. The only opinions that mattered those days were the audition panel's. And why recognize or set limitations? Why would ANYONE want to say, " You know, I can't do this. I'll leave it there." That's what having goals and working your *** off is for. There are too many people and factors in this world that set limitations on others, tuba shouldn't be one of them. Is it a possibility that she won the gig because she's a female? I suppose it's possible. I doubt it, but nothing about music is impossible. You say you're not bitter, but that's a tough sale. Even if you are, there's nothing wrong with it. I'm just confused why you seem to go out of your way at times to trash others. If a kid thinks they have a shot at some major gig, who cares? It doesn't affect me. To each his own, Harold. Have a good one!

Ralph

[Rick Denney]

A general statement:

Nobody deserves a job. The employer deserves an employee whose qualifications and experience are commensurate with the compensation, and who will demonstrate professionalism on the job and make the employer look good. If the employee provides that, then the employee deserves the paycheck and basic polite treatment.

Thus, when someone is hired, it's not because they deserved to be hired. It's because the employer thinks that person is who THEY deserve.

Once the employee has stuck with the employer through thick and thin for years, then the employee may deserve something more than the paycheck.

That's probably at the root of Harold's complaint--too many jump into the audition process thinking they deserve to be treated as if they had already paid their dues. What they don't realize is that even those who have paid those dues don't deserve anything special in the audition process. And based on Mike's description, they don't get special treatment. The most they can expect based on their CV is an invitation, or in special cases a free pass into the final round.

But if you assume you don't have what it takes, you probably never will. And if you assume you have what it takes, you probably don't. It's probably best to be your best and put yourself out there as much as possible to find out honestly where you stand, and not dwell on what you do or don't deserve. THAT determination is out of your hands anyway.

The notion that someone getting hired on the recommendation of Arnold Jacobs (which I doubt for a tenured orchestra position--though I don't doubt his recommendation got some people into the auditions who might not have made it otherwise) is somehow violating what others deserve strikes me as false. Firstly, Jacobs wouldn't damage his own reputation by recommending someone who would not be a superior choice. That's the reason his recommendation would mean something. Secondly, everyone has their resume filled with lists of who they "studied with" (read: took two lessons). Hell, I studied with both Mike Sander and Lee Hipp, and I'm still just a bonehead hobbyist. The recommendation from the teach is what validates those resume entries. Thirdly, what makes us think getting that sort of recommendation from such as Arnold Jacobs is any less difficult than winning without it? Part of what you do as professional development is build a fan club comprising your teachers, and if you can't do that, you probably don't have what it takes.

My beef with Harold's point is that it's the orchestra who makes the rules. If they are prepared to listen to anyone who shows up, then why wouldn't anyone show up? The worst that can happen is to get rejected--big deal. If the orchestra doesn't want to sit through the unworthies, then they should establish a process that weeds them out earlier. It is not the prospective employee's job to police the employer's hiring standards.

If someone is arrogant and cocky, a flat rejection from an audition committee after playing six notes might cool their jets a bit.

Rick "who thinks like an employer and thus makes a pretty good employee" Denney

[thedeep42]

I admit, i don't really know a lot of specifics about the jobs Jacobs recommended. These guys ARE awesome players. He helped with the 'right place right time' factor and it has been my understanding that a recommendation from a reputable source matters. whether the orchestra chose to keep them or not depended on what they could actually do. I guess i should have clarified a bit. i write too much anyway. Basically the point i was making was that it seems that knowing the right people and proper networking can make the key difference in finding yourself in the right position to get a job, especially in a "we needed a tuba in Hamburg yesterday, can you do it?" situation. (a phone call I'm still waiting for!)

[windshieldbug]

the point i was making was that it seems that knowing the right people and proper networking can make the key difference in finding yourself in the right position to get a job, especially in a "we needed a tuba in Hamburg yesterday, can you do it?" situation

Freelance jobs are a whole 'nother animal entirely!

[bttmbow]

I'm really sad about all the auditions I didn't win, but...

[bttmbow]

I didn't decide to PUBLICLY bitch about the result.

arrrrgghh.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

That's probably at the root of Harold's complaint--too many jump into the audition process thinking they deserve to be treated as if they had already paid their dues. What they don't realize is that even those who have paid those dues don't deserve anything special in the audition process.

Damn it Rick! You made my point without pissing anyone off.

Man, I hate it when he does that. All hail! Rick "The Spoiler!

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com