Closest sound to...a Mirafone 190

[ZNC Dandy]

What is the closest sounding horn to a Mirafone 190 available today? I just love the huge penetrating core laden sound.

[poomshanka]

191, 1291, Alexander 164, MW Fafner, or Rudy 5/4.

I might also add the rotary Willson 3050 to that list. Similar sense of omnipresent sound, but with a surprising amount of core and nimbleness in the sound. I find it a fair bit different than the piston 3050, and it's a bit easier to play than my 190 CC was. The Alex 164 CC I've played is a miserable instrument, but I've heard the BBb horns are better axes.

From what Kari Theinert told me, Miraphone still has the forms for the 190 CC, so in theory, they could make one for you on a custom order. As a side note, the .835 bore on the 191 BBb is the same as the 190, but from what I can tell, it's carried through smaller diameter rotors. The valves were the worst part of the 190, but on the 191, they really scoot.

...D

[MartyNeilan]

What is the closest sounding horn to a Mirafone 190 available today? I just love the huge penetrating core laden sound.

A 186.
IMHO, A 190 has all the good and bad characteristics of a 186, just 25% bigger.
Marty "190 BBb owner for many years" Neilan

[ZNC Dandy]

Thanks for the replies so far gentlemen...I have heard Culbertson Rotary is very similar as well? Any Thoughts on that?

[poomshanka]

Thanks for the replies so far gentlemen...I have heard Culbertson Rotary is very similar as well? Any Thoughts on that?

The Culbertson rotary I played here in town didn't feel or sound anything like my 190. Maybe it was just that particular horn, but I felt like I was playing into a ShopVac. The sound was way too tubby for me. Having said that, Tommy had a rotary Neptune that he sold to John Van Houten (that John used on The Incredibles along with Tommy on his PCK). It can also be heard on the Batman Forever score (Tommy playing). Although I never got to play that horn, he always said it was like a 188 on a box of steroids. It's big, but with a level of clarity and core that *might* make it the odd horn out in a lineup of other Neptunes. Just a guess.

The thing that always grabbed my ear with the 190 was it's blend of size and "heat". That thing was able to really able to scale up, but without losing the fire in the sound. If you haven't already given them a listen, I have some sound clips still available in my old "for sale" posting:

viewtopic.php?t=8191&highlight=mirafone+190

Truly an amazing horn. I've also mentioned this before, but one of the reasons I was having trouble with it and just decided to let it go was that the valves were out of alignment - in some cases quite a bit - and I didn't realize it. Lame? Yeah, embarrassingly so. Now one of Joe Murphy's students has the horn. If Joe had known what the horn was like before his student bought it, I think he would've picked it up for himself.

Also, FWIW, I ran through several mouthpieces on that horn. I kept coming back to the exact same chunk of metal Joe copied to create the LOUD LM-10 (which is what I now use on my 3050R).

As always, standard disclaimers apply, your mileage may vary...

...D

[ZNC Dandy]

Thanks again for all of your responses. Dave is making me want a 190 even more! Did Tommy have any mods done to his Culbertson, that you know of, to make it play the way it did? I've heard both of those soundtracks, and I thought it was the 190. Not saying in any way that Ii could produce a sound like those two do.

[poomshanka]

Thanks again for all of your responses. Dave is making me want a 190 even more! Did Tommy have any mods done to his Culbertson, that you know of, to make it play the way it did? I've heard both of those soundtracks, and I thought it was the 190. Not saying in any way that Ii could produce a sound like those two do.

He might've had the 5th valve tuning slide extended to a sharp 23 combo like the Mirafones of old, but I think that was about it. From what I can gather, his horn was *somewhat* of an anomaly, Neptune-wise.

You should contact Mirafone and find out if they can resurrect the mighty 190 CC for you!

...D

[Wyvern]

It's big, but with a level of clarity and core that *might* make it the odd horn out in a lineup of other Neptunes. Just a guess.

I know we all just give opinions based on our own experiences, but I would suggest don't under estimate the Neptune. A good one (which are not so unusual), can certainly provide plenty of clarity and core .

I understand the BBb Miraphone 190 was not as good as the CC. I doubt it I will ever have the opportunity to try one of the CC 190, but I recently did one of the BBb and it really was not a patch on my Neptune.

However, from those ET recordings I can tell a 190 can sound really great! I wonder why they discontinued them?

[poomshanka]

I've wondered why they quit selling them, as well. If they have the forms, they could certainly make a special order. Just gotta have the money. An email to Markus or Kari Theinert might just flush out an answer.

IMHO, I think the 190s were a little ahead of their time. With the current arms race afoot, I think they'd maybe have a little higher acceptance factor. Assuming good operables - intonation, response, etc. - of course.

Since I'm as curious as anyone else at this point, I fired off a note to Kari. Hopefully she'll get back to me with some info, which I'll in turn pass on to all y'all.

...D

[MartyNeilan]

There may be a downside to that "penetrating core laden sound."

My biggest complaint about my 190 was that at anything above F that magic sound would get very brassy and edgy, just like some vintages of a 186 do. Some of that may have been due to lowering the leadpipe and moving it off the bell to improve visibility around the big horn. Perhaps my playing style also contributed - maybe my airstream was too fast for the horn or something else. I also had the horn before I began experimenting with heavy mouthpieces, maybe that would have raised the edge threshold. But, I have never had that problem with the 1290 that replaced it or the 2155R I currently own.

A well known teacher suggested I put clear packing tape down the bell to help control the sound. Lee S could probably shoot me for how difficult that has been to remove. A more permanent alternative would have been soldering brass rods as seen on some big Cerveny's. In a last ditch effort, I also crudely soldered a brace between the top bow and the bell. I recently saw something similar in a picture of one of Walter Hilger's large horns. When Lee played the horn he did not have that blattiness problem, but the horn had the brace on it and he was using a very large and heavy mouthpiece.

Even when the valves were aligned the horn always seemed a little stuffy to me. I always thought maybe the leadpipe was a little too small and/or too long. This resistence wanted to make the horn back up sometimes. Towards the end of my ownership removing the 5th valve seemed to help a little with this. However, my later hack homemade valve venting to compensate for the lack of a 5th meant that the valves had to be spot on aligned or they would leak. The vents probably just need to be plugged.

FWIW, I mostly used a C4 for solos (yes, you can even play Carnival of Venice on a 190) and a highly modified vintage Conn 2 (opened backbore and slightly deepend cup) for most everything else with the horn. The FC helleberg may be a close approximation to that piece. The 190 does not typically lend itself to toilet bowl mouthpieces, but perhaps that would have also helped with the brassiness.

Lee S may still own that horn. He was planning to eventually overhaul it or rebuild it or something. I am sure he would love to use a hacksaw, torch, and drill on me as much as I used it on that horn.

[iiipopes]

The best solution to all the above to temporarily experiment with altering the horn's response, finding "hot spots" or trying adjust intonation is still golfer's lead tape: cheap, quick, can be disguised behind or around or as a brace, ferrule or seam, effective at damping unwanted vibration, and is EASILY REMOVABLE!