Really? Who else was playing ANY kind of improvisatory jazz on the tuba in the '50s (and puh-leeez don't say Don Butterfield), much less recording with Trane as a sideman?
There was no innovation in his harmonic or melodic material. That he was playing (some would debate this point) tuba really was, in the grand scheme of things, insignificant. He blazed no path. There have been jazz tuba players since, but I'd be surprised to hear in a "non-tuba-centric" conversation that any one of them would list RD as a major influence. But, I assume you do, UncleBeer!
On the other hand, DB's total contribution is, overall, of a completely different scale.
Let me say, I couldn't disagree more........
It's funny here, when I don't know someone's real name or where they live, and by funny I guess I mean unfortunate.
I do happen to know a few guys who played a few gigs with Mr. Draper near the end of his career, all of them speak with reverence and are not tuba players. Stories abound in New York City, and we can choose what we want to believe, I've heard a lot about Ray's musicianship, about writing incredible arrangments at someone's kitchen table, going on the nod and not making the gig to hear them played. Hey, at least I saw the table
My 2 favorite players are Bob Stewart and Jon Sass, make it 3 and I add Howard Johnson. I know these guys have a sound that goes way past what Ray Draper was doing, and yet, I wonder if they would exist as we know them without Ray's influence. Anybody have an opinion on that?
Peace. ASG
Richard Murrow wrote:
All anyone can do here is state a subjective opinion and this is mine. Bill Barber's work with Miles, Birth of the Cool, Sketches of Spain, etc. began in 1949. Mr Barber's sound, time, sense of style, and swing were surperb on all of those recordings. He was obviously a good tuba player in addition to being a good jazz player. Miles' Birth of the Cool was "the" cutting edge expermental jazz of the day. Harvey Phillips contributions with the Sauter-Finnegan Band and then much later with the Matteson-Phillips Tuba Jazz Consort are ledgendary. Rich Matteson did an album on tuba (actually a helicon) with the Dukes of Dixieland in the late 50's (trust me I know the difference between dixie & bop) where he played continuous walking lines that would rival the intensity and swing of virtually any bass player of that era and solos on tuba that demonstrated technique and swing like a sax player. Rich was a monsterous tuba player. There are certainly many other jazz tubists who emerged after these players during the late 60's who have had a tremendous influence on the art of jazz tuba playing. Some of them may have had less than a desireable sound from an orchestral perspective, but they made great music and played with expression and style and showed great understanding of the art of jazz.
As a serious student of jazz for the better part of the last 40 years I have heard nothing from Ray Draper that can approach any of the above mentioned players. I think there is a difference between poor recording quality and a tight, pinched sound. There is a difference between nuance and poor intonation. We can all play the "it's artistic expression card" and justify anything, but a rose is a rose and I haven't found anything that smelled like a rose in Mr. Draper's playing yet.
ArnoldGottlieb Wrote:
Cool, there's lot's of albums I've bought that I don't like either. Is there another tuba artist playing a nonbassist role in a small group setting from that era or before or after, I have no doubt that my listening is filled with holes and I'd be happy to try to plug them little by little. I can't think of a record where the tuba gets any billing at all from that era that's not Ray Draper, I don't own any Rich Matteson, so if you put up some links I'll buy them tonite when I get home from work.
Thanks.
Peace.
ASG
Arnold,
Unfortunately, the Rich Matteson recording is out of print. I think it is clear that if you listen to the artists I mentioned above, Bill Barber and Harvey Phillips, that they are definitely functioning in a "nonbassist role". I believe you have already expressed a dislike for Don Butterfield's recording with Clark Terry, so I asume that you don't consider it very creative and that is obviously your opinion and if you believe that, that's fine. I do think though that it was the first such recording featuring tuba in a non-traditional (non-dixie) jazz role and as such deserves credit for that.
ArnoldGottlieb Wrote:
"Is there another tuba artist playing a nonbassist role in a small group setting from that era or before or after,"
As for after: Well, how about Jim Self's recordings? Definitely nonbassist role. Also for $15 + $3 shipping, I'll send you a copy of my cd: Trumpet, Tuba, Piano, Bass, & Drums. A search through TapMusic.com jazz tuba selections will also offer many excellent tuba with small group recordings. If you haven't gone there I suggest you check it out.
Unfortunately, the Rich Matteson recording is out of print. I think it is clear that if you listen to the artists I mentioned above, Bill Barber and Harvey Phillips, that they are definitely functioning in a "nonbassist role". I believe you have already expressed a dislike for Don Butterfield's recording with Clark Terry, so I asume that you don't consider it very creative and that is obviously your opinion and if you believe that, that's fine. I do think though that it was the first such recording featuring tuba in a non-traditional (non-dixie) jazz role and as such deserves credit for that.
ArnoldGottlieb Wrote:
"Is there another tuba artist playing a nonbassist role in a small group setting from that era or before or after,"
As for after: Well, how about Jim Self's recordings? Definitely nonbassist role. Also for $15 + $3 shipping, I'll send you a copy of my cd: Trumpet, Tuba, Piano, Bass, & Drums. A search through TapMusic.com jazz tuba selections will also offer many excellent tuba with small group recordings. If you haven't gone there I suggest you check it out.
Richard Murrow
__
Hey Richard,
Thanks, I have most of the Jim self stuff, and I'll check your stuff out. If you look back I've expressed no distaste for Don Butterfield and was unaware that a recording existed. Would you tell me the name please?
Thanks.
Peace.
ASG
Don Butterfield's recording was Top & Bottom Brass with Clark Terry and rhythm section. It was re-released a few years ago on cd, but I don't know if it is still available. E-mail me privately for more info.
ArnoldGottlieb wrote:Cool, there's lot's of albums I've bought that I don't like either. Is there another tuba artist playing a nonbassist role in a small group setting from that era or before or after, I have no doubt that my listening is filled with holes and I'd be happy to try to plug them little by little. I can't think of a record where the tuba gets any billing at all from that era that's not Ray Draper, I don't own any Rich Matteson, so if you put up some links I'll buy them tonite when I get home from work.
Thanks.
Peace.
ASG
From the other coast--"Red Callender Speaks Low" dates from about the same era. I've seen the recording date listed as 1954 or 1957--for some reason I'm thinking 1957 is correct. It's been years since I've heard it, but I remember a different approach to the horn from Draper. Buddy Collette is the other horn--which is about as far from Coltrane as you can get...
I can't find any downloads, and I imagine reissue chances are slim, but you might be able to find it in a used store or online somewhere.
tubafatness wrote:One way to make a bad tone is to stick the mic in the direct line of the bell opening, which also happens to go against common sense.
I'm not the most recorded tubist in the world but I've done a slew of sessions (broadcast and recording) where the mic was stuck right in my bell. It was right in the bell of the other brass too, that's just the way studio work is done.
There are a dozen other things to blame bad sound on but since I haven't heard the album I can't tell you what's going on with Draper's album. I can tell you that good sound in the jazz world isn't orchestral, as several have already attempted to explain here. Just don't blame it on mic placement.
If you don't like the sound, don't buy the album. If you already bought the album and don't like it, chalk it up to experience. But guys... don't knock Draper in public until you've cut an album. Then we can talk about your sound.
City Intonation Inspector - Dallas Texas "Holding the Bordognian Fabric of the Universe together through better pitch, one note at a time."
Practicing results in increased atmospheric CO2 thus causing global warming.
conversation that any one of them would list RD as a major influence. But, I assume you do, UncleBeer!
