Embouchre Question

Water Music · Post by **Water Music** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:25 pm

I just went to a Breathing Master Class with a Bassbonist named Barry McCommon (big around Philly), and I played Meistersinger for him in the class, and he told me my embouchre looks wrong, because I bring my mouthpiece up higher than it should be, so my bottom lip isn't in as much as my top. I only do this for notes above C below the staff. When I get to my lower range I drop the jaw and the mouthpiece is right on.

Can somebody tell me if this is a serious problem I should fix, because it seems to work for me, and it gives me more comfort in my upper range, plus it sounds good. BTW, I'm using a PT-36, so it's a pretty big mouthpiece.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:00 pm

If it works for you and sounds good to you and those that listen to you, who cares what it "looks" like.

I would only call a student on a "wrong looking embouchre" if I thought the student was physically hurting himself or if it sounded bad.

Just my $.02

Water Music · Post by **Water Music** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:39 pm

Thank you, that's very reassuring

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:57 pm

that is definitely the main thing, sound and comfort but dont drop it right away. Do some experimenting with a so called 'proper' embouchure, your sound might even improve if you work at it.

Water Music · Post by **Water Music** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:17 am

Thank you all. I have experimented with the real way, but my bottom lip is really big, so when I do it theres just too much bottom lip and I get a lot of double buzz on the middle range, plus it sounds thinner.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:32 am

The only reservation I have against wholeheartely adopting Doc's philosophy is if you are doing something that might cause injury or lack of endurance, loss of tone, etc., later, as old-fashioned "smiling" (stretching the embouchure muscles rather than firming them to get pitches) or using too much mouthpiece pressure. So I agree a more thorough embouchure analysis is in order.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:43 pm

Yes, Master. Thank you. May I have another. And please remind me not to post when I'm too tired and overlook what is above.

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:58 pm

Water Music wrote:Thank you all. I have experimented with the real way, but my bottom lip is really big, so when I do it theres just too much bottom lip and I get a lot of double buzz on the middle range, plus it sounds thinner.

Blow more air and really concentrate on firming up that bottom lip. If that doesnt eventually work, stop listening to me.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:14 pm

Many Horn players play with the mouthpiece predominantly on the upper lip, and in their case, its a plus.

The only thing I've heard here so far that bothers me is a shift in the embrochure between high and low. Intuitively, that tells me that flexability [img]may[/img] be a problem.

This is impossibile to accurately diagnose over text. The best (and only) course is to get someone who knows what they're doing to watch and listen.

happyroman · Post by **happyroman** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:23 am

Arnold Jacobs always said that embochure is not a study of meat, it is a study of sound. [If you] have the worst looking embochure in the world but sound better than everybody else, they will copy what you do.

That said, he also recommended a few general guidelines, always based on the musculature and skeletal structure of the individual. The embouchure should be approximately 2/3 upper lip and 1/3 lower lip for middle register playing (i.e., c below the staff to c above the staff for a CC tuba). If you look into the cup and think of the circular opening (rim) as a globe, the top and bottom of the circle (rim) are the poles and an imaginary line drawn half way in between is the equator. The opening between the lips should be approximately 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the rim (south pole) for middle register playing.

The idea is that you always want to create the longest possible surface of lip tissue that can vibrate. The closer you can play toward the equator (which represents the maximum embochure length possible), the more resonance in the sound.

The placement will vary depending on the individual and on the register in which you are playing. In general, the lower you play, the opening between the lips will move closer to the equator (the higher you play, the closer to the south pole).

The main thing to remember is that creating your best possible tone will dictate where the ideal placement is for you. You can find this placement (for all registers) by practicing on the mouthpiece alone. Where you can get the fullest sounding buzz on the mouthpiece alone will be the best placement for you in a given register. Just remember to keep most of your mouthpiece practice in the middle register (as described above), use PLENTY of air, and play music (i.e., simple tunes).

ubq · Post by **ubq** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:53 am

Take a look at Alessandro Fossi playing his tuba at DENVER ITEC, on the Meinl-weston website!

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:57 am

This reminds me when I went to a workshop with a well know professional. I tend to have the mouthpiece lop sided and he said to me "you will never be able to play in the high register like that", to which I hit a high Eb spot on causing laughter from those present.

Apparently what I was doing was moving my embouchure to play the high register without ever thinking about it.

tubamat487 · Post by **tubamat487** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:55 am

Definitly check out Jacob's work and take some lessons with someone who knows whats going on. You don't want to hurt yourself, because even if it works now it may not work in 10 years. When you are trying something new, be patient. It won't change in a day and it may be uncomfortable for a while. After research and lots of practice, if nothing changes- just go back to what you're doing. Its worth an attempt but not worth wasting time over.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:44 pm

I'm not qualified to teach brass, but in string playing....you can see when someone is doing something that is going to work up to a certain level of technique but isn't going to work past that point. They might not have hit the wall yet, or possibly won't for a few years....but if they want to reach a high level they are going to have to change, and the sooner the better.

In brass...there seems to be a wider range of what can be made to work, and there are of course people with "perfect" embouchures who still don't reach a really high level for other reasons. You have to figure out where you are in the spectrum. What does Carol J's embouchure look like? The bar does keep moving up.

MA

lgb&dtuba · Post by **lgb&dtuba** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:39 am

Isn't what the original poster described simply the pivot system in practice? If so, then what's the problem?

JIm Wagner

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:56 am

lgb&dtuba wrote:Isn't what the original poster described simply the pivot system in practice? If so, then what's the problem?

I believe the question was regarding moving the lips and mouth in relation to the mouthpiece, the opposite of keeping the upper lip constant and pivoting the lower jaw and so changing the airstream.

In fact, what I read was that the poster was keeping the lower jaw constant, and changing the upper lip position. This would be a pivot system reversed, so to speak...

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:41 pm

Seems to me that Philip Farkas, in his brass playing book observes that mouthpiece placement with low brass players seems to be limited only by the location of the nose on the face (i.e., there is no single "right" placement).

What Doc said.

Water Music · Post by **Water Music** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:58 pm

Sorry Barry if I misinterpreted you

I have been working on more mouthpiece exercises after I had a lesson with Paul Krzywicki because he told me I needed to do more of them, and it seems to be helping with my double buzzing in the upper range and it has gave me more flexibility with my lips. I also do a lot of freebuzzing (regards to Jay Krush for this tip) so I don't starin a lot for some pitches. The double buzz problem happened again to me when I got my Eb Tuba and my D in the middle of the staff was shaky. I've been working on these problems and it seems as though they are getting better. A lesson would be cool, I'll email you or I'll see you at a BB rehearsal one night and maybe we could set somthing up.

Ira (WM) Rudley

brianf · Post by **brianf** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:26 pm

I also do a lot of freebuzzing

Freebuzzing is without a rim to isolate the musculature. Here's what Mr Jacobs has to say about it: http://www.windsongpress.com/video/buzz%20wo%20rim.wmv

As far as athe double buzz, your embouchure is set to vibrate a different pitch than what your horn is acoustically set for. You said it started "when I got my E flat," implying a new instrument. Maybe this problem will work it's way out as you get more familiar with it.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:07 am

This is starting to sound like the Bogey-Bacall line, just put your lips together and blow.

It's counter-intuitive. If you start having spells of double buzzing, forcing the issue can only make it worse. Of course, first make sure there's nothing in or about the horn that could cause it, like a leak, dent, etc., then go back to the beginning with long, low, light tones to start getting the blood back into the lips and getting them vibrating together, OK, get the trite line out of the way, making beautiful music together, again.

Pretty soon you'll be playing it instead of Sam.