Pitch Anarchy

[Allen]

I suppose this is a bit of a rant.

I was wondering what drives some musicians (and the ensembles some of them control) to play at increasingly high pitches. Around the turn of the twentieth century, things got up to A=456 or so, and then some cooler heads prevailed, and A=435 became the "international" standard. Later, the usual pitch escalation happened, and things got stopped again at A=440. Now, of course we have to deal with ensembles playing at "standards" in the range A=442 to A=445. There are also some brass quintets that play with their tuning slides pushed in.

All of this is in contrast to much lower pitch standards in (say) the Baroque era. G. F. Handel's tuning fork still exists, and it's A=416.

When I ask why, the usual answer I get (aside from incredulity that I had to ask) is that the music sounds more brilliant at a higher pitch. When I suggest that the music could be even more "brilliant" if it were transposed up a few, I get a look that is usually reserved for those who fart in church.

My question is: Why is there such a drive for yet higher pitches? Are the pitch anarchists fans of Alvin and the Chipmunks? Also, why can't the high pitch advocates make a coherent argument for what they favor? [Some of the high pitch advocacy I have read talk about the "natural" or "best" pitch for music, as if God designed our ears for A=444, or something. The only trouble is, they always want a higher pitch than what was standard.]

I don't get it.

Cheers,
Allen
(who owns two different main tuning slides for his tuba)

[windshieldbug]

My understanding is that string players want their instruments to have more projection, and they like their instruments to "stand out" more in a orchestra. Of course, once nearly everyone shades their violin to the sharp side, you need to be even higher to stand out.

We used to snicker in the orchestra as soon as a 440 was given, and the wire choir would immediately go up to 441/442. But as they say, it's always better to be sharp than out-of-tune...

Continental orchestras settled on 440 a century ago. Now manufacturers have to provide different tuning slides for European and American pitches.

Euro military pitch WAS around Bb = B natural. But bands are still around 440, except when the instruments are cold, and the trumpet players are squeezing. By the same token, when the horns are warm and lips are shot, I think it dips below.

Then there are oboe players in general. Originally, orchestras had to tune to them because they had the most fluctuation and were hardest to get constant. Some things never change...

[ThomasP]

I tried playing at 442 about a year ago. I noticed that it was easier for me to play in tune on my horn. I'm not set in my ways, and I do practice at 440 often.

Play two passages, one flat and one sharp. Ask people which they prefer.

It's always better to play sharp than out of tune...

[windshieldbug]

("D minor is the saddest of keys. I keep trying to get the rank amateurs that I play with to understand that, but they are just too ignorant to understand me." Hmm . . . )

When people like that are asked by people like me (trouble makers and ego bruising meanies), "If Contrapunctus IX evoked a certain feeling from listeners when it was a new work due to the fact that it is in D minor, will audiences today feel differently about it now that D is nearly a whole step higher in pitch?"

"Uhh . . . " usually is the response I get.

OK, since I love to throw gas on a fire...

Actually, since equal temperament was adopted for keyboards, IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE, regardless of where "A" is, because there are slight deviations in every key. For keyboards. I've always used perfect intervals for most bass notes. As do most professional tuba players, yourself included, I'm sure.

As a general rule of thumb, we do not use vibrato over here in ensemble orchestral sections for the most part. (NEVER, EVER, EVER where I am.) Only on solo lines, based on my work experience and my recording library, do I hear individuals in US and Canadian brass sections use any vibrato at all. On solo lines I have usually observed players use vibrato quite sparingly, on long notes, starting about halfway into the length of the pitch and tapering off at the end; it is fairly rare, as far as I know.

Without a doubt. If anyone ever tried it, even trumpet players, we'd laugh and call them "Beverly Sills"...

[Jobey Wilson]

Allen,
Welcome to Boston...the city with the highest "A" in America! Most every ensemble here plays high on the pitch...took me a while to accept & get used to, so I feel your pain. To explain:
One VERY popular school of thought here (brass-wise), is that lipping down prevents the sound from "blossoming." You lose overtones, projection, and overall clarity. I agree with the concept, but you must also compensate (simply pull the tuning slide out a little more) in order keep the pitch from shooting to the moon. This is especially popular with trumpet players here, and you must be extra conscious towards the end of programs when fatigue sets in and some have to "muscle-it" to survive...that's when the pitch can truly hit the roof. I think of ensemble playing like a personal relationship...sometimes you have to sacrifice a little to get the best overall result. Remember, our #1 job is to sound great...If pushing my tuning slide in a touch more here & there will help the ensemble sound best, that's what I do.
BUT if, like you said, they have their tuning slides all the way in, I'd say something about that. Andrew & I get into it about this in Triton: "Hey man, I know you like to blow up into the note...just please pull out a little more so I can possibly match you...I can only push in so far!" I didn't study physics, but for some reason, trumpet players have the ability to play much higher on the pitch than I possibly can!!! jobey

[Rick Denney]

I didn't study physics, but for some reason, trumpet players have the ability to play much higher on the pitch than I possibly can!!!

The reason is that tubas are four times as long as trumpets, and thus have to move the slide four times as far to make the same pitch adjustment. A trumpet that plays in correct tune with a half in of slide showing has four times as much pitch range on the sharp side as a tuba that plays in tune with a half inch showing.

Like mine.

Rick "whose main slide will slip out if more than a half inch is showing" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Violins haven't changed size in centuries; most strings play their best and loudest near their breaking point.

Get the orchestra brass to tone down their heavy-artiliery tendency some and you might see a reversal of the trend.

Yeah, that'll happen.

[windshieldbug]

Just as an aside; I don't have perfect pitch, and with 'A' going all over the place, I never really understood it, either!

[quinterbourne]

You of the western side of the pond use vibrato so the job is even easier

I thought the use of vibrato is more evident in England than in North America - often because of the brass band concept. You always hear of British vs American euphonium sound - where the British sound has plenty of vibrato, the American sound not so much.

As far as orchestras go... I assume European and North American wind players use about the same amount of vibrato - on average.

[adam0408]

tuning sharp is a terrible problem. If string players do it intentionally, then they should be slapped or the orchestra should collectively decide on the higher pitch. (I would much rather slap those rushing/dragging/sloppy-playing/lazy nincompoops any day though) Our job is to play together the best performance we can, and if some nancy boy violin player ruins that by tuning sharp even before the clams hit the ears of the audience, then GRRRRR!

Through the course of my playing, it has increasingly come to my attention that the wind ensembles that I am playing with are also tuning progressively more and more sharp. This I think is due to the urge that conductors have to tune to the oboe. I used to be able to sit and watch the oboe player's neck turn red and then purple during the tuning note, he was pushing so hard. Sure, ten cents isn't a big deal, mr. oboe, but think about jonny trumpet back there in the fourth row that has lead ears and hears everything a little sharp. What started as a 10 cent fluctuation often amounts to more like a dollar fifty either way when you spread it out through the whole ensemble.

Furthermore, I dont see how brilliance is achieved by tuning sharp. The truly brilliant sounding ensembles that I have heard are the ones that can play absolutely in tune on the pitch that they are currently playing together.

[lgb&dtuba]

Violins haven't changed size in centuries; most strings play their best and loudest near their breaking point.

Get the orchestra brass to tone down their heavy-artiliery tendency some and you might see a reversal of the trend.

Yeah, that'll happen.

If that's true (and I'm not disputing it myself) then it would follow that the solution is not tuning sharp but developing strings that are in the correct pitch near that breaking point so as to achieve maximum volume and be in tune.

One problem with the practice of tuning near the breaking point of a string is that it is much more likely to break during a performance. It also puts undue stress on the instrument. I'd think that if I was playing a $30k violin I wouldn't want to risk damaging it.

Jim Wagner

[Matt Walters]

From a community band point of view I can tell you exactly what happens to make the pitch go up.

1) Most amatuer brass players tend to play on the sharp side and therefore need to pull the slide out further to get down to A=440. This is a problem with getting the best players in the world to help design an instrument that will be played by amatuers.

2) The general pitch on the horn will be dialed in at a set main tuning slide length that will correspond to the pitch the tester/designer agreed on. Now this horn is designed so that an exceptional player will have the best overall intonation with the slide at a set position and playing a set pitch. An old Bach catalog actually said the trumpet was designed to play in-tune with a 3/8" main slide pull.

3) The rank amatuer (or mediocre player with a superior ego, etc.) plays it and now has to move the slide out 2-3 times further to get down to pitch and blaims the instrument maker. Now, the scale of the horn goes out. When I get a trumpet player complaing that even his old faithful trumpet now plays out of tune, one look at the main tuning slide and I usually see it's pulled out a lot. I ask them to push it in and compair the scale this way. (They got older, and practice less, so now they have to form a tight smile embrochure to play with any security, but now they have even less endurance.) When that fixes it, but they are too high in pitch, we just make a longer tuning slide to minmize that gap created by pulling the slide too far out. That usually makes the horn play more in-tune by minmizing that gap. Of course the over all length of the horn is changed and to be most accurate, some valve slide lengths may need to be slightly adjusted, etc. That is another long discussion.

3a) I had to deal with a communty band clarinetist who also wanted to play 20 cents sharp and said it was where his clarinet plays best. That is why I designed my little York CC cut with a long tuning slide (Whereas most people start cutting a tuba by making the tuning sldie as short as they can.), so I can push in or out depending on the rank amatuer band I am dealing with that week.

4) Then we have the idiot trumpet player who says "I like the briliance of my sound when I play with the slide almost all the way in so the band should tune up to me." There will always be tin eared, self centered egotists in the world. We deal with them or avoid them. They will never change.

That is my observation from a repairman and community bander's point ov view on that subject.

[MaryAnn]

I've been very lucky in my amateur orchestra career to play second horn to a first horn who had a decent sense of pitch. However, in community groups (read: amateur) frankly I can find no pitch center to tune to, ever, so it just doesn't matter if the trumpet is sharp. I'm ignoring him anyway and just tuning to the bell on my left. When I've played tuba....it has been a lot harder, because in a group hopefully it is the tubas who lay the pitch foundation. But I find myself playing a foundation solo because no one knows how to tune to anyone or anything anyway. The saddest part is that the directors of these groups seem to have made it all the way through school without having a clue about intonation either.

I've been told that a good barbershop quartet sings in tune with each other, which is what produces the sympathetic harmonics that cause these groups to resonate so beautifully. I wonder if people without a sense of pitch could tell the difference if they did hear a group that plays in tune.

Mary Ann

[lgb&dtuba]

Rhythm isn't the same as pitch, but it's all related when you start talking about everyone in a group listening to each other and actually working at being tight.

I once had a conversation with a drummer where I was trying to convince him that his kick drum and I (on tuba) needed to sync up tighter and both follow the tempo set by the leader. Especially as the leader usually just got us going and then did other things. (Hence my calling him a leader and not a conductor). His reaction? He didn't care what tempo the leader set and if anyone was going to sync up it was going to be the responsibility of everyone else to follow his tempo.

Might have been ok if this particular drummer could have kept a steady beat - which he couldn't. And I'm not talking about "artistic expression" here, just lack of rhythm and a short attention span.

A tuba doesn't just provide the root tone. It is really part of the rhythm section (at least in the type groups I play in) and as such truly needs to provide a good foundation of pitch and rhythm for the group's sound to be built on.

Jim Wagner

[Rick Denney]

I've been told that a good barbershop quartet sings in tune with each other, which is what produces the sympathetic harmonics that cause these groups to resonate so beautifully. I wonder if people without a sense of pitch could tell the difference if they did hear a group that plays in tune.

It's always been easier for me to hear it in others than in myself. Something about how the sound and vibration bounces around in my empty head diminishes my ability to hear the pitch accurately, though I can hear it accurately in the people around me. That may be a special problem for tuba players. It's not because I don't care. It's just one of the many reasons why I will never be a really good musician.

So, I can appreciate the sympathetic pitches in a good brass quintet, but when my quintet misses that mark, I'm not always aware of what adjustment I can make to improve it, or able to evaluate when my adjustment trials have succeeded.

I find that when I play with other players much better than myself, we are all in tune. They haven't complained to me that I'm making them take extraordinary action to maintain good pitch, but maybe they are just being nice.

Fortunately, music can still be enjoyed by hacks, and evne audiences might appreciate performances by hacks. If music was restricted only to really good musicians, even those good musicians would suffer as a result.

Rick "who does his best" Denney

[pulseczar]

is it just me, or does anybody else have a hard time tuning to trumpets/higher voices? I can't tune to the higher voices of the orchestra for anything.

[quinterbourne]

is it just me, or does anybody else have a hard time tuning to trumpets/higher voices? I can't tune to the higher voices of the orchestra for anything.

Probably because there is a good 2 or 3 octave difference between their tuning note and your tuning note. Something I would suggest, as a possible temporary solution, is to sing their note (or at least internalize it) at the octave your tuning note is in. That being said, your tuning note should be in the staff.

Another option is to take out a tuner, have it read their pitch - ie if they are 5 cents sharp - you tune to the tuner 5 cents sharp.

Of course... none of this really does you much good without a good set of ears.