CC Tuba..Only way to go in the pro world?

[djwesp]

should I really expect to have to learn to play a CC tuba to play professionally?

Answer to that one is yes, unless you are good enough to carve your own path. Do you disagree?

Rick "who didn't realize that Arkansas was now Nebraska" Denney

I completely agree.

This is what he asked.

What is it about CC tubas that make them the better choice over BB flats?

NOT much. The instrument may facilitate "orchestral key signatures", more top of the line horns may be made in CC or F (or maybe previously were), some people may prefer the sound because they think it is "cleaner" sounding, or maybe it is heritage.

Telling the peanut gallery my last audition was on Eb and CC instead of F and CC, was obviously out of line. Because all I did was get taken behind the woodshed for it (not by Rick). That promoted the conversion of the discussion to its current point and I apologize.

Regardless of Eb to F or BBb to CC, my stance is the same. Play what you like, play it well, and be versatile when you need to be. I don't even have a personal preference, as I play in all four keys and refuse to buy into the politics of those keys being as great as they used to be.

[Rick Denney]

I don't even have a personal preference, as I play in all four keys...

Yup, that's what I said. You did read past the first sentence, heh, heh. Anyone studying performance will need to be able to play all four keys, or being willing to in any given situation. Being unwilling to learn any one of them for whatever reason is just making problems for yourself as a performance major, and limiting options rather than enlarging them. Professors will interpret it as laziness in the absence of genius and brilliance.

Rick "who plays Bb and F only, but who is lazy, and who is NOT and never was a performance major" Denney

[Rick Denney]

This is what he asked.

What is it about CC tubas that make them the better choice over BB flats?

Not much...

Okay, since we are going back to the top to try again, here's my answer to that question:

CC tubas aren't necessarily better than all Bb tubas, but the players who master them both are more likely to be better than those who don't. And their professors will see them in that light.

Rick "who will put his Bb tubas up against most C tubas, but not as a recommendation for a kid preparing to be a performance major" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

I don't think any domestic US company every put together a descent Eb tuba.

Dan,

I have a few (3) Eb Yorks that will knock your socks off. These are factory horns that have been restored by Oberloh, but have NOT been rewrapped or reconfigured.

There are some decent horns out there, but you have to look damn hard to find them.

In the earlier part of my post I used the work 'most'. I also have a York monster (19 1/2" bell) Eb that is totally original. It's a pretty good horn, but not nearly as good as the Eb I scratch-built out of my hellbox!

This has been a great thread. Thanks to whoever started it.

[Steve Inman]

There is a bias in the tuba community for the F bass tuba, and just because you try to buck the trend doesn't mean it will be easy.

Steve, the funny thing here is that the original poster asked about whether playing a C was required for a pro, not F. And he was comparing that to an Eb. So, it's not an Eb versus F thing, or even a Bb versus C thing, but rather a big bass tuba versus contrabass tuba thing.

Outside the UK, I don't think there are many pros who think an Eb can be the only instrument--for many kinds of pro gigs. One good point against what I'm saying is that there are lot of pro gigs that would work fine on a small tuba. In fact, my little F is the only tuba that is a proven money maker for me. But kids going to college on these shores who want to play Eb instead of a contrabass will have a lot to prove.

It would also be true comparing a Bb to a C. But I think it's less true comparing an Eb to an F, and there, our tormenter is probably right that Sheridan and Baadsvik have opened some doors.

I was addressing the Bb or Eb vs. C for a college kid studying performance (and my comments apply only to that situation). Any kid wanting to learn to be a pro in college had better not be afraid of playing a C. Grownups can decide for themselves, and kids not aiming at a performance degree should play what pleases them and that they can afford, and be grateful for the opportunities of our good life.

Rick "who thinks advising about politics isn't the same as being a politician" Denney

Agreed. My initial post attempted to answer the BBb vs. CC question. Subsequent posts attempted to discuss whether or not Eb was superior to F in the bass tuba world. As to this secondary sub-thread, and as djwesp confirmed by mentioning that some flack was received when the Eb was admitted to, instead of an F, I agree with you that the current bias (trend, even) is for the F and it's not worth chosing and fighting for an Eb -- at least not while studying for a BA. But I understand djwesp's irritation -- being criticized for an Eb tuba would truly piss me off, as that has nothing to do with ability to play the literature. The discussion should ONLY have been on the topic of musicianship, not the key of the tuba. Now to the Eb "trend" if there is one in the US -- it appears to me to be spotty at best, and more likely found amongst adult amateurs who have discovered the limitations of many rotary F tubas, and/or want one bigger bass tuba as an only horn (something I'm still considering). I do know of a few pros who have and use Eb tuba regularly or exclusively as their bass tuba. But these still seem fairly infrequent situations from all I see and read.

I have over the years played tubas pitched in all 4 keys -- switching when there is a clear musical need. I played a YFB-621 to cover the bass voice in a quartet that was written for 2nd 'bone or euph. My Besson 983 sounded too broad to my ear. So for that gig, I WANTED to sound like a pregnant euph! I'm playing Eb today for my bass tuba, 'cause the quartet group evaporated and I wanted a little bigger bass tuba sound. But in the bass tuba world, there's the "big" vs. "small" agrument also. You always go with the sound you need, not the key. Playability is also critical. Until I recently played the Firebird F, I had sworn off rotary F tubas as unacceptable for my use 'cause the low CC was too unpredictable. And a month back, I heard a very talented tuba salesman at WWBW demo a YFB-822 vs. a MW 2141 -- I was very impressed by both.

If you want a big bass tuba sound with an F, get the YFB-822 or the Willson F. Smaller F sound -- Firebird. Big Eb bass tuba (aka small CC sound) -- Willson, MW2141, etc. Small Eb bass tuba sound (aka "true bass tuba" not 3/4 CC sound) -- perhaps the Yamaha 321, perhaps the Norwegian Star, definitely the "Star Light" coming soon.

If you want a one-tuba-fits-all (my opinion): Willson Eb, MW2141, Rudy 3/4 CC, YFB-822.

If you want to be a college music performance major, get a Miraphone 186 CC or equivalent. There's no harm in switching to CC and that's the mainstream in the USA. Not absolutely essential, but the same bias that djwesp found with the Eb will likely cause resistance to BBb, as you said.

That's my perspective at the present time ....

Cheers,

[djwesp]

This forum has put up a lot more bias than the people I've played for.

I play Eb (modified 983) a lot of the time as my "bass", I've honestly never experienced the bias in person, outside of our dear friend from Indiana (not you Steve, the OTHER man from Indiana) Would it be wrong of me to feel like those comments were partially based on me not playing "his" horn?

[finnbogi]

type "Øystein Baadvik" tuba and you get two hits, thats it.

Actually, that's because his name is Baadsvik.

[lgb&dtuba]

To throw a little gasoline on the fire; there aren't all that many openings in the orchestral world for tuba players. Creating the perception that it is "necessary" to own and play multiple tubas, expensive tubas, in all 4 keys raises the price of entry into that world and thins the herd.

Before I get accused of seeing a "Tuba Conspiracy" I'll add in that top tubists have always looked for ways to differentiate themselves and owning and playing many tubas, serpents, opheclides, etc. does that, not to mention raises the paycheck by doubling.

Toss in amateurs who buy up and collect tubas for their own reasons, show up with a different horn each week and you get the perception that this is all necessary.

I don't play in an orchestra (not my thing at all), but if I was going to try to break into an orchestra and knew that the prevailing preference or tradition was for a CC tuba in my part of the world I'd not waste my time trying to buck that trend. You absolutely don't need to be doing anything that decreases your chances of winning a seat. Too many tubists, not enough seats.

Your competition will be bringing everything they can to the table. You better bring everything you can.

Jim "still only owns a BBb tuba but needs a whole room for all the other intruments" Wagner

[Wyvern]

It is certainly great fun having lots of tubas and if I had the space and money I would buy more.

However, from a purely musical performance perspective I do wonder if having one bass tuba (be it F, or Eb) and one contrabass tuba (be it CC, or BBb) is not the best set-up in order to become really as-one with the tubas and their playing characteristics to put on the best performance?

PS In the UK it is quite possible to manage with just an Eb (many players do), but I think having a CC as well to use appropriately does improve my musical performance - for example Shostakovitch 5 which I did last weekend would just not have been as good on an Eb.

[Steve Inman]

type "Øystein Baadvik" tuba and you get two hits, thats it.

Actually, that's because his name is Baadsvik.

True ... true ... spelling error duly noted.

OK:

551 when you enter Oystein Baadsvik tuba
vs.
12,000 for Roger Bobo .... (per Dale's post)

(Maybe 551 would increase if I knew how to type that cool "O" with the "/" through the center?)


Cheers!

[Steve Inman]

A tool is a tool. Use what you like, or have, or can afford. There are more people using the new Eb tubas out there than had been tradition in a long time in the US. With the newest horns, there seems to be less of a difference in playability between F/Eb and BBb/CC. Once upon a time that wasn't the case. Some great new Fs out and soon-to-be out, too.

Well said.

Do you think Pat Sheridan would show up only with his 983? I suspect not.

You're right. When he "auditioned" he was using a Yamaha YEB-321S. At least that's what he told me.

But he didn't audition for a major orchestra, did he? I assumed that was Rick's meaning ....

Here's my experience: I have never (read never) known a pro orchestral player who did not use a CC as their primary contrasbass tuba. Period.

Not too distant past: Ev Gilmore and, of course, Oscar LaGasse used BBb long after the CC was the horn of choice.

After the last "exciting" thread (the one when the " ... yahoo in the pacific northwest got all bent.") , I thought Dale HAD heard of one -- James Jenkins. (Oh that's right -- he wasn't "known" by Dale at the time ... clever choice of words, Dale!)

2. Monster Eb basses are not known for their good intonation.

When played with a period mouthpiece (or something modern that approximates one, i.e. NOT big, or deep, or wide, or funnel shaped) the intonation on most large Eb tubas of the past is usually very managable (and can be excellent, even with only 3 valves) and seem to lack some of the learning curve and contortions that most older F tubas require. Most people want to play these Eb tubas with what ever they feel is the mouthpice du jour and end up dissatisfied. You must play by the rules and maybe that's the Eb equivalent of the "traditional" F's "low C".

Excellent observation. "I've tried, well I've tried, yeah I've tried, and I've tried ... I can't get no ....." I had written off rotary F tubas (which produce a sound I quite like to listen to) due to the low C. A month or two back I tried the new Firebird and it was almost a no-issue. Finally a very workable low C! But for any other brand (i.e. "older" as you said) F tuba, you'll need much more work to get that note to play than it will take to master an old Eb -- even with the false tones in the lower half octave! (I used to have an old H.N. White "King" 3V Eb -- it's now a 5V in Carl Kleinsteuber's stable.)

Cheers,

[Steve Inman]

"The President's Own" is an ensemble that ranks up there with almost any other onsemble to which I'd choose to listen! They beat the hell out most "professional" orchestras.

Absolutely NO disrespect at all intended towards this group. My point was that in an orchestra setting, an F is traditionally preferred. I assume there is less tradition in a military band for an F, and even perhaps some tradition for Eb (?) ....

Hence it might not have been as shocking for Mr. Sheridan to show up with an Eb for his audition. I thought Rick's point was, if he had gone to audition with an orchestra, he might not have taken an Eb. So I thought I detected an apples vs. oranges comparison.


Cheers,

[TubaRay]

Note: Thanks a lot people! Now you got me wanting to buy more tubas!!! We can barely fit in this house as is!!!

Perhaps it is time for some of the people to move out and make room for more tubas.

[Rick Denney]

"The President's Own" is an ensemble that ranks up there with almost any other onsemble to which I'd choose to listen! They beat the hell out most "professional" orchestras.

Of course, but they probably weren't asking him to play Ride of the Valkyries with the trombone section, either. Military auditions seem to follow a different path from all I've heard about them. There are many ways a genius on a small tuba would be successful in a military band audition that wouldn't work at all in an orchestral audition, don't you think?

But you are correct that my comments were orchestra-centric and probably shouldn't have been.

By the way, I've heard Pat play on many occasions. Words cannot convey how impressed I am with his musicianship and ability. But he does not get an orchestral sound out of his 983, which I'm quite sure he does not intend to.

Rick "who can make a reasonable low C pretty easily on his old B&S" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I still think that if you want to get a professional player's response to your interests, you should get yourself a teacher and play for them.

I think there is plenty of consensus on that point.

Rick "even from the Freak Jury" Denney

[Rick Denney]

2. Monster Eb basses are not known for their good intonation.

When played with a period mouthpiece (or something modern that approximates one, i.e. NOT big, or deep, or wide, or funnel shaped) the intonation on most large Eb tubas of the past is usually very managable (and can be excellent, even with only 3 valves) and seem to lack some of the learning curve and contortions that most older F tubas require.

Perhaps, but then they don't produce the characteristic orchestral sound that would allow them to compete with a C as a do-all instrument, or with an F for something like Berlioz.

More generally, I expect they would be fine for many pro applications outside the orchestra. I still don't see many pros playing them, however. There are a few. Steve Hoog has a really nice big old Conn Eb that he bought without being all that familiar with Eb fingerings in a jazz environment, and last I heard he still was happy with it. Marty Erickson plays a big Willson Eb tuba, and he is fabulous. Tom Holtz plays an old Eb helicon, except when traveling, when he plays a small Yamaha F tuba in his various jazz gigs. Joe Sellmansberger once played an Eb helicon in jazz gigs, but I think he's doing that now on his custom C helicon. Most folks in the dixieland world who play sousaphones are playing Bb. Most folks in the polka world that I see are playing contrabass tubas, either Bb or C. I played F for a theme-park gig in a tuba quartet, but an Eb would have worked just as well, and that group now has a C and a Bb in the third and fourth positions, rather than the F and the C when I was in it. I think Jay Rozen is only playing F tuba these days and for a while at least (maybe still) he didn't even own a contrabass. Gil Corella played Eb 983 in his solo appearances over the last few years, switching to C only in certain situations. Of course, when he was in the AF Ceremonial Brass, he played Bb sousaphone, as do most of the guys in the military bands when needed.

I'm starting to see a picture emerge: Pros might play any given pitch of instrument under any given circumstance, depending on the sound they need. Knowing them all makes all of them available.

Am I overstating the bias towards C tubas in colleges? Maybe. But the point is this: The one fault that is utterly fatal for a performance major is laziness. Therefore, any argument against playing different instruments that is rooted in laziness is competely unacceptable, even if one uses the accusation of pitch politics as an excuse. If it's rooted in inability to learn the new fingering systems easily, then maybe that's a sign, too.

That advice has nothing to do with acquisitiveness or being an equipment geek. And college kids majoring in performance can get away with what they have--for a while. But in the second or third year, they will still have to make that Big Decision.

Rick "whose niece is a performance major at a large university who just had to make that decision" Denney

[ZNC Dandy]

This has almost reached its descent into the piston vs. rotary debate.

Anyone here think that Walter Hilgers, Markus Hotzel, Heiko Triebener, David Glidden, Paul Halwax, Alexander von Puttkamer, Paul Humpel, or any of those gentlemen are inferior players?

What about Gene Pokorny, Warren Deck, Chester Schmitz, Don Harry, Alan Baer, Tommy Johnson, Roger Bobo any slackers in that bunch?

All of those players liste above would all sound phenomenal on a muted garden hose. I think the general thing people are trying to say is..."its not what you play, its how you play it."

Every horn is diferrent, every player is differrnt, every sound is diffirent...sure there are conventions, if you work for someone thats something you'll always have. Get used to it.

[windshieldbug]

Note: Thanks a lot people! Now you got me wanting to buy more tubas!!! We can barely fit in this house as is!!!

Perhaps it is time for some of the people to move out and make room for more tubas.

My wife doesn't mind the tubas at all. In fact she has adopted some as "decor". However, she has decided we are going to add people (one very small one) to the house, not "down-size"!

No problem, they fit easily inside the bells!

[Erin]

type "Øystein Baadvik" tuba and you get two hits, thats it.

Actually, that's because his name is Baadsvik.

True ... true ... spelling error duly noted.

OK:

551 when you enter Oystein Baadsvik tuba
vs.
12,000 for Roger Bobo .... (per Dale's post)

(Maybe 551 would increase if I knew how to type that cool "O" with the "/" through the center?)

Copy and paste.
14,500 for Øystein Baadsvik
28,000 for Roger Bobo.

[Lew]

There are a TON more Eb's over here than F's...

Yeah.... but most of 'em aren't worth having!

That comment is certain to draw some flack. I started out on Eb waaaay back in the 50's and stuck with it through the 80's when I finally made the switch to BBb. Why did I switch?... simple. I wanted to get a fuller bottom end and wanted to get the most bang for my buck. I could have purchased a new Besson but didn't want to make the investment. The only Eb horns here in the US were the crummy old three-banger Conns, Bueschers, Kings, etc. I don't think any domestic US company every put together a descent Eb tuba. Besides, by the end of the 50's, Eb horns had fallen from favor and were phased out by high school band directors.

I don't find that a problem at all, especially as I get older... oh, you were talking about tubas.