Why don't we use the French C tuba anymore??

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:51 pm

Bob1062 wrote:Does anyone understand this?

Yes; like a compensating system, only without the automatic compensation...

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:11 pm

Mike Johnson wrote:We had roads before you had a country!!

It doesn't really matter which side you are on if the fastest thing moving is an ox pulling a cart with square wheels.

Rick "who thinks road design from before about, oh, 1905 isn't really relevant to this little debate" Denney

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:24 pm

Mike Johnson wrote:We had roads before you had a country!!

Quite correct! There were Roman paved roads there while you lot were still worshipping trees!

finnbogi · Post by **finnbogi** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:08 pm

windshieldbug wrote:... but I bet that he drives on the "correct" side of the road, unlike some of the rest of the EU...

In France, I'm not sure that there is a "correct" side. I have never sat behind the wheel there myself, but from a spectator's viewpoint, French traffic looks like Brownian motion.

As for Britain being in the EU:

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote:We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased, it's just like old times.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:52 am

FYI, Here's a little etude out of my French tuba method book. (Sorry for the quality--it's pretty old).

http://www.tubasr.us/etu1.gif
http://www.tubasr.us/etu2.gif

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:09 am

Mike Johnson wrote:What's wrong with square wheels and trees?

I was just trying to point out that some nationalistic traditions die hard... kind of like our "democracy" with the 'Electoral College'...

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:35 am

Maybe it's interesting to note that at the time the french C tuba disapeared, the typical french, piston valved, ascending 3rd valve french horn and its associated big vibrato playing style got phased out as well. From a technical point of view there is absolutely nothing wrong with those horns, and they even have some (intonation) advantages over the conventional system.

It seems more likely fashion got the better of those instruments, and pressure from conductors and the internationalized recording industry to make the orchestra sound acceptable to as worldwide an audience as possible.

Donn · Post by **Donn** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Jonathantuba wrote:That is a nice sentiment Mike, but in reality how many brass players in the UK, or France would want to go back to those small bore instruments? We have all got used to the power that a wide bore gives and except in period orchestras, I guess things will not be turned back.

There's a fine line between recognizing an insidious tendency, and embracing it. Next your string bass players will bring in amplifiers.

Chuck Jackson · Post by **Chuck Jackson** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:58 pm

I have some of the recordings of the New Queenshall Orchestra and I think they are astounding. It is nice to hear Elgar's "In the South (Alessio)" done on the smaller instruments. Whereas with a modern group you get brass with lots of volume and a "mushy" sound, with that band you get an incredible amount of focused volume and every note is crisp and clean. I think that the trend in homoginization of orchestral sound has done a great disservice to music. Three cheers for the Germans and Austrians for bucking the trend and holding true to their musical ideas.

Chuck

anonymous4 · Post by **anonymous4** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:17 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:FYI, Here's a little etude out of my French tuba method book. (Sorry for the quality--it's pretty old).

Sorry if I missed something. You said the lowest note was an A three lines below the staff. How would someone play the low F# in the etude? Are those pedal notes? Is the C two lines below the staff considered a pedal tone?

Thanks!

loic · Post by **loic** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:53 pm

This studies are writen in concert pitch for the french tuba and they sound one tone lower when they are played on the Bb saxhorn (in france the saxhorn and the euphonium are played as transposing instrument, like trumpet and the part are writen in bass clef).
The lower note is (on the french tuba) a A six line below the staff.
Most of the pieces writen for saxhorn or tuba go to the F 4 line below the staff.

sorry for my aproximative english.
LoÃ¯c.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:02 pm

loic wrote:sorry for my aproximative english

On the contrary, you approximate well!

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:34 pm

anonymous4 wrote:Sorry if I missed something. You said the lowest note was an A three lines below the staff. How would someone play the low F# in the etude? Are those pedal notes? Is the C two lines below the staff considered a pedal tone? Thanks!

I also observed that there was rarely any reason to use more than 3 valves. I thnk you've got the right idea:

1. Pedal tone
2. Yes

On these old small-bore instruments, pedal tones can be pretty darned good.

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:36 pm

Pop Korn wrote:Just picked up this thread.

The french tuba is a wondrous and beautiful beast. It is a neat narrow bore euphonium in c. It has usually 3 descending (normal) valves and, here's the magic, 3 ascending valves.

Thus it can cheat and use pedals on very short tube lengths. So rather than a muddy heavily valved note near the bottom it can play a open clear "pedal" note.

OK -- I'll bite -- how DOES an ascending valve work? You have to snip away some tube length, don't you?

Never seen one that raises the pitch....

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:27 pm

Pop Korn wrote:The french tuba is a wondrous and beautiful beast. It is a neat narrow bore euphonium in c. It has usually 3 descending (normal) valves and, here's the magic, 3 ascending valves.

Which valves are the ascending ones? According to my turn-of-the-century French tuba method book, the valves work this way:

Valves 2 and 5 both descend 1 semitone
Valve 1 descend 2 semitones
Valve 3 descend 4 semitones
Valve 4 descend 5 semitones
Valve 6 descend 8 semitones

Mikelynch · Post by **Mikelynch** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:49 pm

That's the way mine is, Chuck. From my experience, a French tuba with even one ascending valve would be pretty unusual.

Mike Lynch

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:54 pm

The French (and Belgian) ascending system that I'm familiar with concerns 3rd valves and horns.

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:40 am

windshieldbug wrote:The French (and Belgian) ascending system that I'm familiar with concerns 3rd valves and horns.

Me too. The shortest bugle length of a french C tuba with 3 ascending valves would have to be of alto (tenor for brits) horn proportions. Not much of a tuba left anymore.

(A french french horn with ascending system is basically built as a horn in G with the 3rd valve being a reversed whole tone valve. i.e. the valve loop is engaged when up and bypassed when down. These instruments are still described and treated as horns in F though)

J.c. Sherman · Post by **J.c. Sherman** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:04 am

Like having an ophicleide and a cimbasso (yaaay!), I've always wanted a French Tuba. I played one at the Pacific Northwest TUBA convention back in 1988, when Courtois still made one (at least, it was still in their catalogue). I loved it. And Bydlo was effortless. And it's a great substitute for Ophicleide.

However, that being said, as Tubas have grown a bit, a euphonium, being a bit larger/longer, is a good match with the bigger bones of today. Try it sometime on Bozza and - believe it or not - Pictures. Way cool sound.

Oh - could the original poster of the two French Tuba Etudes resore the links? I'd be very interested in these!

J.c.S.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:12 pm

J.c. Sherman wrote:Like having an ophicleide and a cimbasso (yaaay!), I've always wanted a French Tuba. I played one at the Pacific Northwest TUBA convention back in 1988, when Courtois still made one (at least, it was still in their catalogue). I loved it. And Bydlo was effortless. And it's a great substitute for Ophicleide.

However, that being said, as Tubas have grown a bit, a euphonium, being a bit larger/longer, is a good match with the bigger bones of today. Try it sometime on Bozza and - believe it or not - Pictures. Way cool sound.

I recently had an opportunity to play a French C tuba. I played part of the Bydlo on it, using Bb fingerings (which meant everything was actually a step higher). I was hoping for something unique in that instrument, but...

...nope...

It looked, sounded, and played like a euphonium. The difference between it and my Besson is no greater than between, say, a Besson and a big Willson, etc.

Maybe at the fringe of subtlety, there is a difference. But I doubt anyone in the audience would hear it.

We also listened to a recording of Pictures where the French C tuba had been used. Yes, you could hear it. Yes, it sounded like a loud euphonium. No, it did not sound like a tuba. Listening to Dean Miller warm up on his euphonium, as I have done recently, it seemd to me that he has more of a tuba sound in the low register than what I heard from the French C tuba. (I hope he takes that as the compliment it's intended to be.)

Rick "now able to back up statements from two years ago with a touch of actual experience" Denney

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