Vibrato on Euphonium

[Daniel8802]

Hey guys ... just curious on how you do vibrato - lol I didn't know of another way to put it. Do you do use your diaphram? I've always done it this way, but people always say thats not how your supposed to do it. I also can do it with my lips. Do anyone you do it by rolling your fingers on your valves? I know some trumpet players do it that way.

[smurphius]

Diaphragm can be done, but highly looked down upon. It can create a number of problems in playing and is overall hard to control. Jaw vibrato on the other hand is preferred. Essentially, you shift your jaw slightly in the speed of which you want the vibrato to sound. It's sort of like you're chewing food?

A third alternative is to sit on top of the washer during the spin cycle... again, highly not recommended.

In trying to develop vibrato, think about various speeds. You may have just one wave per beat or several waves depending on the style, speed, and so forth of the piece. The more types of vibrato you can develop, the more "colorful" your palate will be for expression in music.

Good luck!!

[Daniel8802]

Oh ... I know how to do vibrato - my tone scoes in tryout rooms were always 7-9s out of 10s. I do it with my diaphram and it always works and sounds fine.

[Rick Denney]

Oh ... I know how to do vibrato - my tone scoes in tryout rooms were always 7-9s out of 10s. I do it with my diaphram and it always works and sounds fine.

Your tone is 7-9 out of 10? What are you doing wrong?

Rick "who thinks anyone majoring in performance should not be satisfied with less than 11 out of 10" Denney

[tubatooter1940]

Kenny Rodgers sings with a diaphram vibrato and has lots of control. I tried it and never could harness that monster.
Large horns IMHO require a jaw vibrato. In my trumpet days a horn shake sounded great at any speed. Tuba shaking is not practical.
If I had lots of money I might hire somebody to stand behind and shake me.

[Daniel8802]

guys ... no ... just play no ... acutally and i'm not just saying this but my tone scores are usually the highest out off all the auditioners because my teacher had the master list, and they are usually an 8 which i am just fine with.

[windshieldbug]

If you ever want to play with others- orchestral brass, or a band section- you need to be able to play without vibrato.

The way I was taught vibrato was jaw vibrato. As my playing progressed, I was able to develop the use of vibrato to the degree I wanted it when I wanted it, and also to have NONE when I wanted it.

When you're NOT playing a solo piece, you'll need to do both.

[zeign7]

I think that, like most issues that come up with playing these instruments, the method used to produce the vibrato is not NEARLY as important as the end result. I'm seeing a lot of bias towards jaw vibrato, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I use a vibrato that comes from shaking the air column from within. I won't say diaphragm because that is an involuntary muscle and it is impossible to use, but it is essentially the diaphragm technique that everyone talks of.

I have never had any problems that were directly caused by vibrato. I've had a poor tone but to fix this I was not allowed to use vibrato to get my ear accustomed to what a good tone sounds like, and once that was accomplished I put the same vibrato back in and it sounded great. Also, the "diaphragm" vibrato is what singers use, and I tend to emulate singers when thinking of the purest tone possible. Not that this is always an issue when jaw vibrato is employed, but most professionals that I've heard (talking euphonium now) that use it also lean towards the faster vibrato, which I am not partial to. It boils down to just SOUND good, however you can achieve that. People play off center and get yelled at for that in school too, but there are plenty of great players that do that as well.

[Dean]

Best to have a steady, controlled air stream, which means dont use it for vibrato.

Learning good jaw/embouchure vibrato is the way to go--the technique is the same that we use to lip a pitch up or down, so the end result is you play with a steady air stream, and have the technique to both produce a great vibrato and adjust pitch.

[finnbogi]

Best to have a steady, controlled air stream, which means dont use it for vibrato.

Singers also need a steady, controlled air stream, and they use 'diaphragm' vibrato (although I have seen non-classical singers using some sort of an inverse jaw vibrato, where the jaw is still but the head moves). It may take more work to gain control over the vibrato in the first place, depending on how good your overall control of your air stream is, but once you have control over it, you can manipulate your vibrato any way you like.

[joebob]

The argument against diaphragm vibrato is that it disrupts the air stream. Although this doesn't seem to hinder vocalists, trumpeters, flutists and others who use it. You could use a similar argument against jaw vibrato: disrupting your embouchure by moving your jaw up and down could be bad for your embouchure. Ultimately, you have to use what works best for you. I've seen a number of professionals who are able to use both which seems like a good idea to me - it's always good to have options.

[Dean]

Best to have a steady, controlled air stream, which means dont use it for vibrato.

Singers also need a steady, controlled air stream, and they use 'diaphragm' vibrato (although I have seen non-classical singers using some sort of an inverse jaw vibrato, where the jaw is still but the head moves). It may take more work to gain control over the vibrato in the first place, depending on how good your overall control of your air stream is, but once you have control over it, you can manipulate your vibrato any way you like.

We aren't singers.

[zeign7]

Dean wrote:
Best to have a steady, controlled air stream, which means dont use it for vibrato.

You guys do realize that using Jaw vibrato also is manipulating the air stream? The purpose of vibrato is to create a measured change of pitch, which means changing the air stream. Sure, you are changing your embouchure to do it, but that doesn't mean that it is not shaking the air stream.

The important fact that both ways of achieving vibrato do the same thing, vibrato being a measured change in the air stream. As was previously said, the arguement against diaphragm vibrato is that it disruptst the air stream, but SO DOES JAW VIBRATO!!!! It does so via making a measured change in the embouchure, but it STILL changes the air stream just like diaphragm vibrato.

Also, "We aren't Singers"? I do believe that most professional wind players can relate almost every aspect of their instrument to singing. The easiest way to teach vibrato, IMHO, whatever form you choose to use, is by listening to artists, both instrumental and singers, and then singing! While you are playing your instrument there are so many things you are listening for and trying to do that it can be distracting. One way to focus on placement of vibrato in music to be musical is to have your students sing the line.

Again, neither is truly better IMO, but there is an unfair bias against diaphragm vibrato in this thread so far and I have yet to see someone make a valid argument against it. I am all for learning and contributing but this is getting to the point of "One mouthpiece works the best for everyone." Utterly ridiculous.

Sorry for getting so worked up about this but as many of the people on this board will one day teach at least a lesson or two I find it very disturbing that this is being put down with evidence that is very weak. Not everything works for everyone, and one day you may have a student that has a beautiful diaphragm vibrato and it would be a travesty to make him/her learn jaw vibrato because of empty bias.

[Rick F]

There's a good article on types of vibrato used here:

Vibrato: Should you use it? If so, what's the best method?
http://www.theconcertband.com/focus_vibrato.htm
...see the 'Brass Section'

I especially like their summation in that article...
[quote]

• Avoid using vibrato during sectional playing.
• Vibrato should never be used to cover up intonation problems.
• Only advanced students who have demonstrated an ability to play with a good, steady tone should be encouraged to use vibrato.
• A good vibrato is one that is even and carefully controlled.
• The style of vibrato employed must be sensitive to that of the music. The vibrato used in jazz, for example, is wider and faster than that used in orchestral music.
• In general, a vibrato that is too obvious to the listener is already exceeding the limits of musical good taste.
• Lyrical solos can sometimes benefit from the use of vibrato, even in orchestral work. For example, the trombone solo in Ravel’s “Boleroâ€

[Dean]

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I never said students shouldn't listen to singers. I never said they shouldn't sing a line for us during a lesson. I use these techniques--you assume too much. I've been teaching privately for 8 years now.

My point in "We aren't singers." was simple. I wont compare singing and brass technique when it concerns pitch adjustment/vibrato. There are parallels between singing and wind instrument technique, but not in this topic.

I use and teach a steady air stream. You don't have to.

Of course the sound is all that matters. But if 98% of pro-level players perform a technique using method "A," and the other 2% use method "B," I guarantee you I will be teaching method A.

I've used both. I used air or "diaphragm" vibrato for years before I knew any better. When I finally got to undergrad I learned first how to make a decent sound--then learned vibrato the right way.

The original poster sounds young. He/she asked a legit question. Maybe he/she doesnt have a local teacher. Maybe the band director doesnt know for sure either. (I know I grew up in near-ignorance) I simply gave the advice I believe to be true and that I teach to my students.

Go ahead and advocate that 2% method and HOPE that this person you never met and probably never will can make it work ON THEIR OWN. I'll stick with what works for the 98%.

[windshieldbug]

[finnbogi]

Best to have a steady, controlled air stream, which means dont use it for vibrato.

Singers also need a steady, controlled air stream, and they use 'diaphragm' vibrato (although I have seen non-classical singers using some sort of an inverse jaw vibrato, where the jaw is still but the head moves). It may take more work to gain control over the vibrato in the first place, depending on how good your overall control of your air stream is, but once you have control over it, you can manipulate your vibrato any way you like.

We aren't singers.

Well, some are. Nevertheless, the part concerning the controlled air stream is identical.
My point was that if 'diaphragm' vibrato doesn't affect a singer's control over his air stream, it shouldn't affect a eupher's control either.

That aside, I care not whether people use 'jaw' or 'diaphragm' vibrato, each musician should do what works best for him/her.

[SplatterTone]

I put a B3 unit on my euph. You can't beat that old Hammond vibrato. And the Leslie spin-up on dramatic parts is most effective.

[windshieldbug]

I put a B3 unit on my euph. You can't beat that old Hammond vibrato. And the Leslie spin-up on dramatic parts is most effective.

Try carryin' up that euph up a couple'a fire escapes...