"Columbia" Pat'd H. B. Jay Co. Chicago -- ???

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:39 pm

OK, you've read my posts about my borrowing an Eb from my undergrad for occasional things. I've run out of places to look for what it really is. On the bell in a "ribbon" engraving but rather block letters is the above. The bell is a wide flare 20" bell with an hibiscus or similar pattern in addition to the ribbon. Silver plate with gold washed interior bell. Bore @ .650 @ 2nd valve slide. Lead pipe has the up and down tuning slide with water key before the valve block, but this is an inside-outside slide rather than both legs being inner legs. Everything looks original and in good shape about it, including the smaller receiver, except the valve buttons. At some point it must have lost or had removed its original valve buttons, because it currently has Conn-style buttons that, of course, are too deep and don't allow the valves to depress completely without unscrewing them part way. The rest of the cosmetic details about the horn, as the valve caps, etc., all look between the wars. Upright 3-valves. Serial number 8517 stamped on the second valve casing on the front. The 1st and 2d valve slides are to the rear, only the 3rd is to the front in the "conventional" upright sense. OK, the $$ questions:

1) It's obviously a stencil, but by whom and when? and

2) Does anybody have any appropriate valve buttons?

My tech looked through his junk drawers for a week between other jobs and couldn't find any that would do.

I'm working on pix. Hope to have something postable in a few days.

Thanks.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:32 am

See if you can get some Weril valve buttons--they've got a very shallow bottom. I don't know if the thread will work for you, but it's worth a shot.

Champion was a stencil brand. My guess is that you've got a Pan American.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:14 am

As usual, the trumpet people have beat us to it:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/cgi-bin/yab ... 1117815084

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:59 am

Harry B. Jay manufactured brass instruments in Chicago from 1910 to 1946, and used 'Columbia' as a trade name.

An obvious question: How much further do the valves need to go?

In fact, would not adding felts which do NOT clear the stems to the top have the desired effect; that is; allow the valves to come up the same distance, but, assuming the stems are original, allow the finger buttons to sit higher from the top of the stem and allow full depression and giving the desired offset when depressed?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:00 pm

Thanks. Well, I guess it's a real company and not a stencil after all! The dates do line up, both with the style of the horn, and knowing the history of the music department at the college, when it was probably purchased. The very first picture of the trumpet in the Jay thread on horn-u-copia linked shows exactly the same bell engraving, just of course a smaller scale than the tuba bell. Evidently, the "reverse" leadpipe was the Jay Co.'s patent claim to fame. The ascending leg is completely worn to bare brass, the only apparent worn place on the tuba, probably from being held there to adjust intonation.

Hey Windshieldbug - uh, no. Since the Conn buttons are hollow and inset, the bottom rim of the button clanks on the valve cap and doesn't allow the valve stem to go down far enough. The valves are pretty long throw. A flat valve button would allow the stem to depress fully. Open is not a problem. Just fit thin cork and felt in layers to the stem under the valve cap until you bring the ports down the right amount to get the best intonation.

Uh, don't the Weril valve buttons have metric threads? If so, they wouldn't fit.

Thanks again. Keep the posts coming. I'm still working on pictures.

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:03 pm

How are the stems attached to the valves? If finding buttons is this much of a problem, couldn't you have a tech machine you a new set of stems?? Why not just tap the existing stems and put different fingerbuttons on it to make the valves work properly?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:08 pm

Hey, Andy - conventional screw on valve buttons and stems. Major consideration: $$$ The college doesn't use the horn, so they won't budget anything on it. I'll spend a few bucks for the sake of my alma mater, but length of valve stems doesn't keep the valve buttons from clanking on the caps. I need flat ones like the trumpet buttons in the 3d post down on the linked thread on horn-u-copia.

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:11 pm

Ok, so why not just tap and rethread flatter valve caps? You're not going to find Jay buttons, so. Maybe try using a trumpet/baritone style button, or a Conn 2/3/4/5/ J button.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:18 pm

Ah, there's the rub: who has flatter valve buttons? That's what I'm after.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:19 pm

I suspect that you're probably not going to find a lot of folks who want to part with authentic Distin-style buttons.

Andy has some viable suggestions. If you have more time than money, you could also simply make your own buttons.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:32 pm

The other option is to take the Conn valve buttons, put them in a lathe, and machine them down as well.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:45 pm

Another possibility would be to try smaller instrument buttons on a valve, espescially other Conns, and see if they thread, clear, and give you the throw you need.

As a start, take just a stem to practice, and see if the screw size/threads are even the same.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:22 pm

Yes, I tried my Besson 2-20 trumpet valve caps, and my son's Bach CR300 cornet valve caps, as they are flat, but the threads didn't line up, so I couldn't proceed further.

Anybody out there have three flat or Distin-styled tuba valve buttons with the standard threading as does a Conn cap?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:07 pm

After thinking about it for awhile, and for a short term fix that is merely an add-on, I believe I'm going to go to the hardware store and find some small disks or washers which will fit into the valve caps and which have a hole in them large enough for the screw threads, but small enough they will sit on top of the valve stem. In looking at the threads, they are pretty long, so to unscrew it somewhat will still leave enough threads in the stem for security and stability. This will have the effect of "flattening" the cap, raising the edge of the valve button in relation to the top of the stem, and thereby allowing it to go down sufficiently for the ports to align.

Thanks to all for your help in figuring out the horn and giving me some ideas for an intermediate fix until I find the proper valve buttons.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:37 pm

Here's the link to four pics
http://wethreepopes.mysite.com/

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:52 pm

Last chance to look at the pics. After Christmas, I'm taking them down to make room for other pictures.

TubeNet

"Columbia" Pat'd H. B. Jay Co. Chicago -- ???

"Columbia" Pat'd H. B. Jay Co. Chicago -- ???

"Columbia" Pat'd H. B. Jay Co. Chicago -- w/ Link