Questions about an Eb horn

[horto008]

I know there's been a couple of these posts lately, but if you guys'll suffer one more, I'd appreciate an opinion.

I just purchased this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/34177498@N00 off of that internet auction site and would like to know if anyone can take a guess at the date of manufacture or the "real" manufacturer -- I can't find anything out about Champion Chicago.

Right now, I think I got a great deal on it. After speaking with the seller, I know it is a "real" horn in Eb and was rescued from an attic.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

brad h

[Donn]

... date of manufacture or the "real" manufacturer -- I can't find anything out about Champion Chicago.

Try the search option on this site - "champion chicago", all terms. This should come up, for example.

I'm sure it's real and it's a horn, but is it an alto horn, or a tenor horn?

[horto008]

By stating it was a "real horn," I meant it wasn't imported from China for $50. Also, it is an alto horn.

[dunelandmusic]

The Champion name, and the Chicago location would make me suspect a Lyon & Healy import. If you Google "Lyon Healy" with the word Champion, you will find sites with cornets having the Champion name. Most likely a European import.

An example:http://www.vintagecornets.com/html/repairshop.htm

[windshieldbug]

The McKinley Act of 1891 required that all instruments be labeled with information on where it was manufactured. So, if made outside the US, it must have been made before 1891, unless it so states somewhere like the valve bolck or the receiver.

The valve block looks like many French instruments, and the flat spring waterkey spring makes me think that this is an earlier (rather than later) instrument.

[windshieldbug]

eBay currently has a "Champion Chicago" cornet that also has "Austria" on the 2nd valve:

[dunelandmusic]

My suspicions were correct, it is a horn sold by Lyon & Healy, I'm looking at a 1909 L&H catalog, and your horn is on page 65

Band Instruments
"The Champion"
Light Action-Elaborately Engraved
American Model Valve Tops and Buttons
With Water Key, Music Racks and German Silver Mouthpieces

The drawing in the catalog matches your horn exactly
They actually had 2 similar horns, the Eb Alto and the Bb Tenor, both listed as High and Low pitch.

The Bb Tenor prices
Brass...........................................$35.00
Brass, Nickel plated........................$39.38
Brass, Silver Plated, Satin Finish.......$52.50
Brass, Silver Plated, Finely Burnished $68.13

Now in the beginning of the catalog it states they allowed a discount of 60% to the trade only

It also states: "We have a resident buyer permanently located at Markneukirchen, Saxony, the center of the foreign musical instrument industry. His thorough understanding of our wants and his intimate knowledge of foreign markets enable us to supply the trades with the best Imported Merchandise values obtainable"

If I had a scanner I'd scan it in for you

[dunelandmusic]

I'm sorry, I should have listed the Eb prices, same descriptions:

$30.00
$32.50
$45.00
$54.63

[imperialbari]

Jeff, I would very much love to have 300dpi .jpg scans of that catalogue for my brass galleries! Will it be possible to have a friend doing the scans?

The quoted text concurs with my closer visual analysis.

The rather wide bell throat would exclude French or UK origins. Their narrower throats in my ears further a better intonation around the 5th and 6th partials, but they have problems with keeping their own with the other instruments in full brass band tuttis. Newer models from Besson and Courtois have had their bell flares extended to diminish that problem.

In my youth we mostly saw the wide-throated piston alto horns coming out of the Netherlands (Schenkelaars) and to some degree out of Bohemia (Amati/Lignatone). Alto horns are not used very much in Germany, but German makers would make whatever causing a profit.

The wider throated alto horns have a very attractive sound. In my vocabulary they are alto euphoniums. But their horribly flat 5th partials have cost many problems in ensemble contexts. Directors including myself hated the waste of time in trying to get the intonation right. My system was to make re-fingerings, but that was not popular with amateurs, which had not been taught the basics with me as their private instrumental teacher.
$
The throat first made me think “Dutch or Bohemian, the engraving disturbed that impression. That was clearly a German one. The Markneukirchen tradition has the tools digging much deeper in the metal especially on lower end instruments (sorry for that, but that is fact). I find these engravings a bit crude.

The give-away on this instrument is the diameter of the 90° bends of the two top branches coming out of the 1st and 3rd piston casings. That diameter is much larger than on probably any other local makers’ traditions, which acoustically is a huge benefit. But the Germans needed that because their older piston brasses generally had a fairly small bore.

My take is, that this instrument was made in Markneukirchen by one of the self-employed master craftsmen, who’s successor after WWII was forced to join the GDR-conglomerate by us best known as B&S.

May I use the photos linked to in the original posting for my strictly non-commercial galleries?

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre
YorkMasterBBb@Yahoo.com

[imperialbari]

It is bad taste to refer to private correspondence on a public forum. Jeff sent me a mail, but I will make no personal quotes. And as Jeff and I both stay right on topic my qualms are manageable:

Jeff asks about this catalogue text: American Model Valve
Tops and Buttons.

About the buttons: My eyes do not allow me to tell from

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34177498@N00/309160241/

which is reality and which are optical reflections.

I will dare take this standing: It is about reflections. European piston instruments almost invariably have next to perfectly flat mother-of-pearl inlays on their buttons. The Americans in some cases preferred concave metal buttons, which the Europeans would make on demand.

The matter about the American Model Valve Tops cannot be solved via the documentation available to me presently, but I happen to have a very strong suspicion.

A problem with piston instruments is the groove for the valve guide. Not to speak of the guide itself. One solution especially seen on smaller brasses is about top-sprung pistons. I think, this is a French solution.

For obvious reasons I have had fewer US made instruments through my hands than European, even if probably a third of my 60+ brasses are American made. My main interest is Conn and King, even if I also have Kanstul, Bach, Martin, “Yorkâ€

[windshieldbug]

Klaus, let met at least be one to thank you for being willing to share your considerable knowledge of brass instruments!