Origin and adoption of the CC tuba?

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:08 pm

I've been wondering where the CC tuba originated, and what group of players popularized it? I'm thinking that the US orchestral players of the early 20th century (Fred Geib, et al) were the early adopters of this key tuba. Anyone have specific or not so specific info on this? Note: This is not intended to be the latest X vs. Y thread....

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:00 pm

Aw c'mon guys. Maybe I should have put "CC vs. CC" or "My Dad's buying me a Yorkbrunner!" in the subject line to generate some interest. **Goes back to sidelines and sulks**

ZNC Dandy · Post by **ZNC Dandy** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:35 pm

I will preface this by saying, I don't know the history of the instrument as well as I should. From my recollection August Helleberg also played a CC tuba. Thats what little sliver of knowledge I have. I'll do some more research, and then get back with you.

hbcrandy · Post by **hbcrandy** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:58 pm

This is an interesting question. It may help to contact some of the European tuba manufacturer's with some history such as Gbr. Alexander or Gerhard Meinl as to the source of the CC tuba. Also, Harvey Phillips, from his close association with Bill Bell, may be able to shed some light on the subject.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:02 pm

I've always assumed that it was for the same reasons C trumpets popped up in orchestras... slight timbre differences, and facility for sharp keys (none of which couldn't be overcome by their Bb brethren, but there you have it... )

Sam Gnagey · Post by **Sam Gnagey** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:49 pm

It's been my belief that the earliest CC tubas were made by Sander or Cerveny. I know that there is an early picture of Mr. Bell with a Cerveny CC with the water key held closed by a rubber band.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:17 pm

An interesting subject!

I understood that Cerveny were the first to introduce the CC. In their catalogue it is stated:

In 1845 CERVENY constructed the BBb and CC Contrabass - large bore tubas which have often been copied

BTW I kind of remember reading somewhere that a CC (rather than BBb) Contrabass tuba was originally used for Wagner's Ring. Can anyone clarify that?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:33 pm

Very cool, Adam! Weren't ophicleides also pitched in Bb and C?

On a little tangent, can someone tell me what's new or revolutionary about this 1988 patent for a compensating system?

http://tinyurl.com/fhrog

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:40 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:Very cool, Adam! Weren't ophicleides also pitched in Bb and C?

On a little tangent, can someone tell me what's new or revolutionary about this 1988 patent for a compensating system?

http://tinyurl.com/fhrog

Didn't get to the patent, just the search screen. Number?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:03 pm

windshieldbug wrote:Didn't get to the patent, just the search screen. Number?

Sorry-- 5052261.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:41 am

Adam Peck wrote:CC tuba by Boosey & Co. 1885

I find it really interesting that this is a British made CC of 1885, while through most of the 20th century CC does not appear to have been generally used in the UK (Eb + BBb for band with F/later Eb for orchestra).

It looks like it is quite compact (a Piggy CC!) and what an interesting configuration on the 3rd valve tube which indicates it compensates with 1 and 2.

This shows up a tangent in British tubas of which I was previously unaware - Thanks for posting.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:42 am

Stephen Shoop · Post by **Stephen Shoop** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:50 pm

I know that Fred Geib played CC tuba-- mainly Conn. He also imported the Sander (not Sanders) brand for some of his students. I mentioned this topic to Harvey Phillips on a recent visit. He thinks that August Helleberg had something to do with it.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:34 pm

One should not ignore the C ophicleide to six valve C French tuba, either!

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:08 pm

the elephant wrote:Many serpents were in C, including the one that I played at UNT. I had a lot of fun with that thing. And the fact that it was in C made me feel like a real pro serpentist . . .

If one who takes liberties is a libertine, does that make you a serpentine?

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:36 pm

imperialbari wrote: But the 3rd slide is two whole steps to my eyes.

If you are right Klaus, then I wonder if it originally had two alternative 3rd valve slides. It looks to me that if it had a normal straight slide fitted it might be the usual one and a half steps

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:07 pm

Neptune wrote:
imperialbari wrote: But the 3rd slide is two whole steps to my eyes.
If you are right Klaus, then I wonder if it originally had two alternative 3rd valve slides. It looks to me that if it had a normal straight slide fitted it might be the usual one and a half steps

Don't know, but the 3rd=2 full tones was not uncommon before the turn of the century and actually the "official" tuning in France. One also sees it on old Belgian instruments. I don't know if it ever made it into Germany.

I believe that Fontaine Besson also used a different tuning on his 4th valves.

Richard Murrow · Post by **Richard Murrow** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:56 pm

As legend has it; During the time that August Helleberg was playing in the Chicago Symphony (he was the original CSO tubist), he heard a German band playing on a street corner and marveled at the sound that the tubist was getting. After inquiring about the brand of tuba the gentleman was playing, Helleberg learned that it was a German Sander. Helleberg offered to purchase it, but to no avail. Consequently, he went to Germany and bought one for himself. His two sons, John and August, Jr. also played these horns and at one point the three Hellebergs were all playing CC Sander tubas in the Sousa Band. That was certainly very progressive thinking for the early part of the 20th century, roughly around 1910. Helleberg played that horn until he started endorsing Conn products some years later. He definitely insisted on playing rotary CC tubas and was probably one of the first advocates of the use of the CC, however we can only speculate who first started the trend.

Because of Hellebergâ€™s stature among the tubists of his day his use of the CC tuba was extremely significant. He was supposed to have been a virtuoso F tubist as well. I believe we can be fairly certain that Cerveny was the first company to manufacture CC tubas. Obviously, some of those who followed Hellebergâ€™s use of the CC were Fred Geib and Bill Bell and the their students who continued to promote the trend. BTW, the Sander factory was destroyed during WWI and no REAL Sander tubas were made after that time. Iâ€™ve always found it interesting that the CC tuba became so popular in the U.S. when it was first designed in Europe and that the BBb is still more popular in Europe. A good question for this thread might be; what would have happened to the CC tuba if an amazing Danish tubist like August Helleberg had not eloped with his young bride and come to the U.S.? What would have happen in Europe if he had not eloped and had stayed in Europe? Would our little tuba world have been turned up side down? It really doesn't matter to me, because as Will Rodgers might have said if he had been a tuba player, "I never meet a tuba I didn't like", BBb, CC, EEb, F. I love 'em all!

Richard Murrow

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:59 pm

I always wondered why the combinaation of Eb and Bb instruments became the norm versus say F and C instruments. It would seem to me amatuer musicians would be much better served with C instruments, enabling them to play off of piano scores or out of hymnals (remember C melody saxes?), similar to the tuning of recorder consorts.

I always thought there could possibly be a (albeit limited) market for inexpensive model C instruments.

Would the whole issue of high vs low pitch around the turn of the 20th century have anyting to do with this?

another mind bender is the Db piccolo. Seems like a high pitch instrument to me...

I guess it is a mystery we will never know....

Trying to explain transposition to a young band student is always an excersize in futility...

I always tell them that all the band instruments were invented and developed at different times and in different countries and unforutnately nothing was standardized, so now we have the odd mix of instruments we have.

I mean think about it even today in rock and jazz bands you have the tenor sax and trumpet playing Bb lines. it just really makes things much more complicated than they need to be. I realize too however that there really is no way to change it at this point, unfortunately.

Imagine elementary or junior high age kids trying to put a group together in the basement. It just will never work and unfortunately it is a major problem. If you have sister and brother trying to play together in the basement and they can't understand why their music never sounds right, well you can well imagine the frustration and the reason why kids give up, and pick up a ball and go outside...

ken k

Paul Scott · Post by **Paul Scott** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:12 am

I believe the factory ceased to exist after WWI, (at least that's what I've always heard). I own a Sander F tuba-very interesting horn. It's very light and I think that the rotors are hollow, making for a very quick action. Originally the fourth valve tuning was equal to the standard 2-3 combination. I believe this tuning was used all on Sander tubas.

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Origin and adoption of the CC tuba?

Origin and adoption of the CC tuba?

Origin and Adoption of the CC Tuba